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Drachasor
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And what happens if all the tanks are destroyed? What happens if he disbands the tanks or sends them on suicide missions? I don't think renting units is pratical.
However, why not just have it so you can either give someone a unit, or give them the means to build X numbers of a particular unit (or even building). Then they can build a certain number of said unit or building, until they use up the help you gave them. I think that would handle things in a more elegant manner. There are too many potential difficulties with unit loans, I think.
-Drachasor
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PresidentMarcos
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Wait...if a civ is wiped out, if all it's cities are captured...if you liberated all it's cities, could you possibly decide to revive it, as in France post-WWII?
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peteruk223
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I think that is a good idea to revive conqured nations. It will amke it more realistic if there is like a world war and a nation is conqured but saved by its allies.
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Ijuin
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Tokyo, Japan
May 2002
time: 14:37
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What I want is for the AI to stop accusing me of breaking an alliance when I win the war.
Here's an example: In a WWII scenario, I am America, allied with England, France, and Russia against an alliance of Germany, Rome, and Japan. I completely conquer one of the enemy civilizations. As the CivIII AI is set up, I get accused of breaking my alliance because the civilization that we were allied against has died.
I do not think that it is unreasonable to ask that the game should not penalize you with your allies for winning such a war--isn't winning a war supposed to be the top reason for forming an alliance in the first place?
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Fosse
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U.S.A.
Mar 2002
time: 23:37
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A new feature for diplomacy...
The addition of "Occupied" as a new status of land.
In Civ III, the land is either theirs or yours. A conquered city might have a few resistors for a few turns, but largely you own a city as soon as it's taken.
If we have a system in which conquered land becomes "Occupied," and provides no shields or production for either side, then we have the beginnings of some really neat war-time diplomacy.
You cannot trade occupied territory to third parties (closing the silly exploit of giving conquered cities to third parties), and the cities become very high stakes chips at the eventual peace talks.
Occupied cities become officially part of the conquerer's land when peace is made (unless the city is returned) or when the enemy is destroyed or surrenders. Occupied land returns to the defender when peace is made (if the city is returned in bargaining), when the city is retaken militarily, or when the aggressor is destroyed by the defender or a third party.
This also lets Mutual Protection Pacts keep you out of trouble when your friend gets aggressive. If you sign a pact, and your pactmate goes on a rampage and some poor civ tries to take back its own city, then you don't have to go to war.
If that guy presses into your friend's land though...
Last edited by Fosse on 21-07-2004 at 00:21
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Drachasor
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I thought the problem with lending was dealing with the disband/destroyed/suicide issue. It isn't like you have those units insured.
I think lending would be handled well enough by being able to give units, or give the ability to build units. If you give the ability to build a unit, you can choose it to last a certain number of turns or for a certain number of units. That way you avoid the muddled issues involving lending units.
-Drachasor
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Fosse
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U.S.A.
Mar 2002
time: 23:37
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I'd like negotiable deal lenghts.
20 turns for everything is boring. I want to negotiate less gpt for more turns! Or I won't declare peace for anything less than 30 turns of guaranteeed safety!
I'd like to see multilateral diplomacy.
I'd like to see one way ROP and MPP. I might come to the rescue of a tiny nation that sells me resources if I'm the world's biggest power. But if Number 2 attacks me then that little place shouldn't necessarily be brought into it.
I want politicaal borders, that can be decided upon by nations with embassies, and are immune to the effects of culture (unless a whole city defects). Cultural borders should only be important in the ancient ages. After a certain level of advancement they should be taken as the default political border, until two nations decide to run a nice straight line down the middle of the mountain range in between them.
Surrender, like SMAC!
Ceasefire, like Civ2 and SMAC!
No "advisor" that simply tells you yes and no! Let diplomacy happen with real bargaining!
How many people would be interested in having the MP diplomacy model in the game, where you offer a deal on turn 1, they counter on turn 2, and so on until both parties accept or one stops. That might be neat in SP.
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Tall_Walt
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California
Dec 2001
time: 21:37
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In addition to lend-lease, mercenaries have a long history: the Swiss were famous for theirs. US bases in Europe or Korea are essentially lended units as a deterent.
In order to make lending work, the borrower should not be able to disband the units. If he tries, the lend ends. Further, the lender should be able to set a damage limit after which the units will automatically reteat to the nearest allied city. They aren't going to fight as hard for someone else as for their own country. Alternatively, when a lended unit becomes weakened, the owner decides whether the unit continues or retreats. This is representative of the unit commander following the policy of his own country instead of the country he's fighting for.
The biggest thing that needs fixing is that allies should consult before going to war. You don't just go to war and drag all your allies with you. And an ally refusing to join a war you started (especially if you didn't get him to agree to it) is not as bad as an ally that doesn't aid you when you're attacked.
I think it should be possible to restore countries. I'll add to the example of France the example of Poland, which did not exist between WWI and WWII. These kind of things should greatly increase your diplomatic standing. To simplify things, perhaps a single government in exile, like the Free French, should exist: allying to it will mean you don't need garrisons for any cities you retake.
Countries should be able to federate or amalgamate, as the 13 colonies became the US or as the EU is forming now. A weak country threatened with destruction should be looking to become part of a stronger country, even if the only choice is the country presuring it. A modern example is Hawaii, but the examples are countless as nations formed from kingdoms.
It may be too complicated to maintain national identities beyond federation to allow repetition of the fragmentation of Czecheslovakia or the Soviet Union--or the US Civil War. It might also frustrate a player.
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builderchad
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I like Fosses' ideas about the 'occupied' land idea.
Political borders also sound great and I have wished for those ever since playing SMAC. Fosses' ideas on it are great though it could get fiddly when it comes to dividing land. This could be simplified by having subregions based on geography which could be subdivided.
I am also keen on Tall_Walts' ideas on nations forming from smaller states and fragmentation. One way this could be achieved is by having many many cutural/racial groups (like Texicans and Georgians or Czechs and Slavs etc) which would mean that in addition to running all your normal affairs foriegn and domestic you would also have a whole slew of issues to deal with specifically related to cutural divisions within your own country. One idea I was playing with was the notion that despite there being 'unexplored' land at some point peoples become native to it and lay a kind of ancient claim to it. This would mean that regions become more important and part of negotiations, invasions, defense etc.
Negotiable length treaties and agreements is also a must, I have never liked the '20 turn' limit.
Alliances should grow stronger and ties between long standing allies should run deeper and deeper. Take the US and UK for example. There is not much that would undo that relationship and it would take a great deal of time for that to errode. Alliances in CIV always seemed so fragile to me regardless of how long you had a good relationship with another nation.
I would appreciate it if someone could explain the Swiss mercenaries lend-lease thing to me as it would be useful to see how this was actually worked. I can see this working better in older times but today there is such tight integration of units to other parts of the military and intelligence that this would definately be more of a challenge and I would like to hear of any modern day examples of a true lend-lease. The US forces in both Europe and Korea, for example, are still commanded entirely by the pentagon of that there is no doubt. Albeit if those forces were to enter into action it would be under heavy coordination with local forces and other NATO presence.
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01-07-2004 12:06
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