04-07-2004 09:36									#31
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to Wikipedia. I've done a few edits and additions to the section on Berkeley.

Say... is Apolyton an entry? nope. this needs to change!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specia...=apolyton&go=Go

	04-07-2004 09:47									#32
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I'd rather get my info from somewhere other than the internet equivilant of a bathroom wall.

	04-07-2004 09:55									#33
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I'm sure that some people preferred to sail in a wooden ship once upon a time.

	04-07-2004 09:57									#34
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I don't see how the analogy holds.

	04-07-2004 09:58									#35
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The internet and open-source, or group efforts, are the ant hill of humanity kicked over and challenged to build something better

he said, typing from a Windows computer

	04-07-2004 09:59									#36
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I don't see how the analogy holds.

Of course you wouldn't, because to the wood and sail person, steam and steel were not progress.

	04-07-2004 10:33									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Smiley http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specia...=apolyton&go=Go

Thue!

	04-07-2004 12:03									#38
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP The latter is as far from top down authoritarianism as one can get. I am not blind to the dangers of corporations, I share your concern, however the dangers of government far exceed the dangers of corporations.

Hardly. Every adult has a more equal share of power in determining who the government is than they get in the market system.

	04-07-2004 12:04									#39
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I'd rather get my info from somewhere other than the internet equivilant of a bathroom wall.

What's wrong with a bathroom wall? Where else is one supposed to get a good idea about which of your female classmates will actually put out?

	04-07-2004 12:06									#40
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You think that voters have a larger impact than consumers do?

	04-07-2004 12:11									#41
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Proportional impact. If 10% of the world's people hold 90% of the world's wealth and I'm not one of them, then my influence on what gets produced is pretty marginal.

The fact that people consistently vote for things that require redistribution of wealth and sometimes even get them would seem to indicate that for most people a vote is worth more.

	04-07-2004 12:24									#42
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Free markets, where every consumer votes with their wallet every day, but 60% or less vote for the same old tired whores of political non-change every 4 or 5 years, would seem to have you painted into a corner.

The question also assumes a regional, not a global focus. Or did I miss the bit where Africa got to elect a socialist government for the United States?

	04-07-2004 12:29									#43
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Not really, because one can compare the aggregate of the influence my individual purchases over 4 years with the influence my vote has over the same time. That is what is being compared. It isn't as if the government does things for just one day.

The proportion of influence that the majority have over the same time is much higher than that they have with the market.

And I accept the point about regional focus: it just shows how much less power we actually have given that democracy is much more fractured than markets.

	04-07-2004 12:55									#44
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apolyton

There you go.

	04-07-2004 12:59									#45
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wikipedia

I noted that the localized wikis de.wikipedia.org for example often hold different information than the english one.
To me this is good and probably to anyone who speaks more languages as you can fuse all the information together.

I cited wikipedia's information on Radar and Passive Radar in my latest work for university.

	04-07-2004 13:02									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa I cited wikipedia's information on Radar and Passive Radar in my latest work for university.

You probably lost points.

	04-07-2004 13:02									#47
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And I added a link to Sid Meier's entry . That was bloody easy as Hell. Sweet .

Btw, any reason Markos and Dan's names aren't there and are instead _____?

	04-07-2004 13:03									#48
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Consumers will have a great deal more to do with the 'big scene' than voters ever will, unless the voters empower the gubmint to do really stupid stuff, like go all socialist on their asses.

Take the auto industry, for example. Back in the seventies, consumers by and large decided that Detroit sucked. They brought the American auto industry to its knees in ways the gubmint would never have dared to.

It comes down to there are more possible choices for consumers where to spend money then there are for voters on whom to vote for, even though the consumers and the voters are the very same people, ideally.

Where consumers spend money will shape society in the future far more than who they vote for, within reason. Consumers will give the breath of life to a product, and therefore a process, by buying it or they will deliver the kiss of death by ignoring it.

It is far more democratic than the political process, where we seem to be stuck with the living dead. We are stuck with these vampires that none of us seem to like, but who seem to rise from the grave on every possible occasion.

	04-07-2004 13:07									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui And I added a link to Sid Meier's entry . That was bloody easy as Hell. Sweet . Btw, any reason Markos and Dan's names aren't there and are instead _____?

I didn't bother to check the spelling so I left that to someone else

Btw. it really is easy to add stuff to Wikipedia, this was my first try. Nice.

	04-07-2004 13:08									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui And I added a link to Sid Meier's entry . That was bloody easy as Hell. Sweet . Btw, any reason Markos and Dan's names aren't there and are instead _____?

No one has written in Bobo and Scooter?

	04-07-2004 13:12									#51
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quote: Consumers will have a great deal more to do with the 'big scene' than voters ever will, unless the voters empower the gubmint to do really stupid stuff, like go all socialist on their asses

That's the case in a country where most of the economic decisions are made by means of markets. But that doesn't speak against my point, which is that ,proportionally speaking, democracy is more egalitarian than the market. I don't think any reasonable person disputes that, although they might dispute whether or not this should matter.

	04-07-2004 13:13									#52
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Take the auto industry, for example. Back in the seventies, consumers by and large decided that Detroit sucked. They brought the American auto industry to its knees in ways the gubmint would never have dared to.

OTOH, we have RIAA and all the wannables. Plus spam.

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither It is far more democratic than the political process, where we seem to be stuck with the living dead.

I don't see how - those who have no money cannot vote.

	04-07-2004 13:15									#53
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Well, a reasonable person would have to hold that forth for a reasonable person to refute it, no?

How anyone could say that politics is more equal than the market beggars the imagination.

	04-07-2004 13:19									#54
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quote: I didn't bother to check the spelling so I left that to someone else

Ok, I got it . This is my first time adding stuff to Wikipedia as well. I'm having fun with adding links .

	04-07-2004 13:19									#55
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Hate to be a pedant but that translation of "Apolyton" is slightly misleading.

In classical Greek it means various things. I assume Markos mean "the ultimate" since that is what one sense of the Greek implies. See:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bi...t.reflang=greek;layout.reflookup=a%29poluton;doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%2313147

Of course, it may mean something else in modern Greek.

	04-07-2004 13:21									#56
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quote: Hate to be a pedant but that translation of "Apolyton" is slightly misleading.

Then change it . Though I agree that Markos refered to it as 'The Ultimate' rather than 'The Best'.

	04-07-2004 13:22									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger OTOH, we have RIAA and all the wannables. Plus spam.

Who's 'buying' it?

quote: I don't see how - those who have no money cannot vote.

Even in the darkest corner of liberty deprived PRC, villagers are buying things. They are voting with the fruits of their labour in ways the gubmint would never allow them to with a ballot.

The market, which is based on human desire, and therefore nature, overcomes political systems that think they have transcended it. Unless you go the NK way. There there is no market, and truely no hope.

	04-07-2004 13:25									#58
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quote: How anyone could say that politics is more equal than the market beggars the imagination.

Both are methods of decision making about regulation and production. Your purchasing habits determine what sort of things producers will continue to produce. But people have vastly different sums of money which is why the result is that rich people get vastly more of what they want.

But (corruption aside) everyone gets one vote. If something is decided democratically, then everyone has a roughly equal say. Not so with money, in which the preferences of most people are discounted.

	04-07-2004 13:27									#59
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That's the fun with Wiki. Anyone can add or edit to any non-locked page.

	04-07-2004 13:29									#60
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quote: The market, which is based on human desire, and therefore nature, overcomes political systems that think they have transcended it. Unless you go the NK way. There there is no market, and truely no hope.

That's complete pants. The market requires us to act in unnatural ways. For the greater part of human history people lived in small communities where selfishness was frowned upon because it was a poor survival strategy. The result of this was the moderate altruism that we all display.

Even now people have concerns about things like price gouging and inflated markups (both of which are often required if a market is to function properly) which is a mark of how persistent the old ways of thinking are.

There's nothing natural about capitalism - it is a sophisticated abstract cultural artifact.