04-07-2004 13:32									#61
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I see someone has changed it already. How long before some disgruntled Apolytoner vandalizes the page with anti-Ming comments?

	04-07-2004 13:32									#62
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... and you get a choice of 4 or 5 or 6 parties for gubmint. Whereas the consumer has hundreds of choices, even if poor, and therefore has an impact.

You argue that the thirsty man is quenched in the desert by the choice of sand dunes to drink from.

	04-07-2004 13:35									#63
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Your choice in a market depends on the product. There are more choices in political party than there are in ready to use consumer operating systems.

Besides, democratic decision making isn't that different from a market in which everyone is given the same amount of money every three years or so (there are complications to do with collective action problems, but it's much like that).

	04-07-2004 13:35									#64
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Found and added the link for GalCiv. It was under "Galactic Civilizations". Don't know what else to add.

Maybe I'll check the religion part of the encyclopaedia and ... fix some misconceptions

	04-07-2004 13:35									#65
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quote: I see someone has changed it already.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.. it was me .

	04-07-2004 13:36									#66
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Good work Comrade Siddiqui.

	04-07-2004 13:37									#67
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I wonder when people will get back on topic?

	04-07-2004 13:38									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I see someone has changed it already. How long before some disgruntled Apolytoner vandalizes the page with anti-Ming comments?

	04-07-2004 13:38									#69
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I liked the bit about "lively forums".

	04-07-2004 13:39									#70
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I added something in the 'discussion' section about whether refering to the forums as the "most important" part was wise .

	04-07-2004 13:40									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon That's complete pants. The market requires us to act in unnatural ways. For the greater part of human history people lived in small communities where selfishness was frowned upon because it was a poor survival strategy. The result of this was the moderate altruism that we all display. Even now people have concerns about things like price gouging and inflated markups (both of which are often required if a market is to function properly) which is a mark of how persistent the old ways of thinking are. There's nothing natural about capitalism - it is a sophisticated abstract cultural artifact.

If it is unnatural, why is it the way of things unless disrupted by 'revolutionaries' wanting to 'advance history' in the wake of which 'nature' reasserts control?

Your fairy tales about idyllic scenes notwithstanding, people gathering and buying things they liked, ie the 'market', is as old as Jericho.

	04-07-2004 13:43									#72
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Note: I haven't read the thread much.

To everyone: What happens when the line between corperation and government becomes blurred?

	04-07-2004 13:45									#73
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You get the USSR or the PRC of old?

	04-07-2004 13:48									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I added something in the 'discussion' section about whether refering to the forums as the "most important" part was wise .

I've replied. Wiki must remain free from owner's propaganda!

	04-07-2004 13:49									#75
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quote: If it is unnatural, why is it the way of things unless disrupted by 'revolutionaries' wanting to 'advance history' in the wake of which 'nature' reasserts control?

Because some sort of market economy is the easiest solution to the problem of large agglomerations of people. Altruism requires trust to prevent free riding, which wasn't a problem in the small communities which human beings have lived in for most of the species' history because you could easily identify those who weren't pulling their weight. It's easy to identify with a common good when you are related to most of the people in your economy.

Moreover, it's easy to reach decisions about what to do in a small community, but hard for a larger one.

	04-07-2004 13:57									#76
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nt

Last edited by Atahualpa on 04-07-2004 at 14:24

	04-07-2004 14:01									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Because some sort of market economy is the easiest solution to the problem of large agglomerations of people. Altruism requires trust to prevent free riding, which wasn't a problem in the small communities which human beings have lived in for most of the species' history because you could easily identify those who weren't pulling their weight. It's easy to identify with a common good when you are related to most of the people in your economy. Moreover, it's easy to reach decisions about what to do in a small community, but hard for a larger one.

In other words, the market is natural and anything other than the market is only possible in a small, related group like the Waltons.

Thanks for making it quick.

	04-07-2004 14:04									#78
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Of course, even Bill-Bob was trying to sell something or other to Mary-John for something or other.

Maybe the market existed there, too?

	04-07-2004 15:29									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Thue!

What about me?

	04-07-2004 15:32									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui It's actually pretty good. I wonder, what safeguards are there for protecting articles from political biases? I looked that GW Bush one, and it was very balanced. I'd imagine if it was a free for all in editing, it would not be anywhere close to that.

There is of course rules for wikipedia articles, like being unbiased, that can be pointed out to those who want to add biased content. There is also way mediate when two editors disagree on how an article should look.

Registered members can use the "watch" feature to be told when somebody has edited an article. I imagine that at least one person has GW Bush on their watch list. Also, trusted editors (sysops, which there are a good deal of) can temporarily make a page uneditable or block an editor if he keeps making bad edits.

It seems that the people in wikipedia who value good quality and unbiased articles are stronger than those who want to add biased content, and that it is possible to agree on what a good article is. Quite comforting, really .

Looking at the edit history of the George W. Bush article there are some cute edits : [1], [2], [3]

	04-07-2004 15:42									#81
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither In other words, the market is natural and anything other than the market is only possible in a small, related group like the Waltons. Thanks for making it quick.

Can you not read or something? For most of the time of the existence of our species, people have lived in small, clannish groups. Our sense of values is largely shaped by this fact due to natural selection. Hence, people tend to be squeamish about ripping other people off or price gouging even though these things are crucial to the efficient operation of a market. The explanation is that such values were selected for during the history of our species. If there is a natural state of human beings, it is relatively egalitarian.

Markets and the fixation on exchange value only arise when there are large groups of people or inter tribal trade (rare) - because they introduce trust complications and planning complications that the normal values don't work for. But we still have our inculcated sense of fairness. The selfishness required of us by the market system is one that people have a lot of trouble accepting (hence the number of people who will seek a "fair" price rather than the maximum they can get).

To say that capitalism accords with our natural method of distribution and exchange is simply false - it's a whopper of monumental proportions. A Market system - because it arises when people cannot trust in reciprocity - depends on strictly enforced laws to stop people free riding and not payiung their bills. It is in no way natural. Hobbes knew this centuries ago - it's bizarre to have to explain it still.

Worth looking at.

http://www.unm.edu/~nvaldes/326/lect7.html

	04-07-2004 16:30									#82
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If you have trouble with that idea: consider the way you behave towards your own family.

If your brother needs money, you do not automatically base your decision on what's in it for you; rather you give him the money if you can. The same applies to almost all economic transactions within families - most people would consider it perverse and immoral to behave towards their family members the way they behave towards strangers (the guy at the Kwiki Mart isn't just going to give you things without there being some relatively immediate and identifiable good in it for him).

Primitive communities are a lot like families - in fact they mostly are extended families. Hence their economic behaviour towards each other is much more like that of family members than strangers.

Why do they behave this way? Because that kind of behaviour happened to be better at assuring individual survival than complete selfishness is. Hence, people are naturally altruistic and egalitarian because they share in this evolutionary endowment. Markets only arise once people start to gather in larger groups where the old system doesn't work anymore. But that doesn't stop people having mixed feelings about acting as selfishly as they can towards others and believing that it is somehow wrong. It's because it is unnatural that the market system inspires such mixed feelings.

	04-07-2004 21:08									#83
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I'd rather get my info from somewhere other than the internet equivilant of a bathroom wall.

I like that.

	04-07-2004 21:45									#84
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quote: I've replied. Wiki must remain free from owner's propaganda!

And Thue has answered back... it must also remain free from poster propaganda .

	04-07-2004 23:58									#85
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Ok, accepting your contention that in small tribes in early human history we lived communally, not in a market system, what example does that provide for us now?

Ideally, I agree with you that small, cooperative groups of people is the best way to go. However, as you pointed out the free market exists because it is the system best able to handle the large numbers of people and large numbers of resources we now use and exchange.

A small commune is allowed and accepted in a free market system, however a free enterprize is not allowed or accepted in a communist system.

The ideal system, then, would be a free market system where people are encouraged (note, NOT forced) to join up in small communes. This provides the best of all worlds.

	05-07-2004 00:37									#86
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The OTF deserves an entry of its own.

	05-07-2004 00:37									#87
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NYE claimed that markets were natural. That's the point being argued here; save the rest for another thread.

	05-07-2004 01:34									#88
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quote: If there is a natural state of human beings, it is relatively egalitarian.

Like when one group went off to bash another group and steal what was there to steal?

You paint a picture of Eden and propose that that, in isolation, is the only natural thing. You promote a myth about our 'natural selves' to argue against the market being natural.

If buying and selling is so unnatural, why does it spring up whenever humans start to gather, like in the first cities?

	05-07-2004 02:06									#89
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No one is claiming that it was some sort of Eden, only that, if anything is natural, it is the moral economies of tribal societies - markets require us to suppress our natural altruism.

These are the facts.

	05-07-2004 03:09									#90
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Another night of me aimlessly wandering Wikipedia to soak up knowledge. I'm stuck on Indonesian children's rhymes.