04-07-2004 22:40									#1
	Wierd situation; please advise Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

How would you have handled this situation ?

World Huge (360x360!); Archipelgao; warm; moderate humid; 5 billion years old. All 31 Civs. Regent level. I'm the Spanish.

My problem is this. My nation has NO resources at all.

I control about 6% of the surface of the planet (according to victory screen). But I have NO luxuries (not even a single Icon). NO horses; NO Iron; NO saltpeter. In fact, the first resource I have access to is Coal (1 icon worth; and its near my border with the damn Persians).

Right now; I have borders with the Mongols (who have horses and several of their UUs); Persia (who have iron) and stack of Immortals; the Inca (across a wide strecth of ocean; but closer than most other civs); and the Egyptians (who are also resource poor; but must have traded for Iron; because they have pikemen).

The only thing I have going for me is that I have some the best agricultural land in the game (lots of bonus food resources) and therefore a substantial population advantage.

With both the Mongols and Persia clamoring for war; and me without any resources (other than 1 coal, which I expect to lose to a Persian SOD of about 15 or so Immortals), how would you handle yourself ?




My 'solution' was to research Nationalism (my first Industrial age tech was obviously steampower) and pay thru the nose to upgrade spearmen to riflemen. But my army is entering the industrial era and I still have nothing better than spearmen and longbowmen.

HELP !

	04-07-2004 23:45									#2
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It is hard to make pronouncements without a better sense of the situtaion. I suspect I would go with lots of CxxC cities and get to Monarchy. Build as many spears and archers as I could crank out and see how my neighbors like to deal with SoD.

I would like to hit them before I get so far as Monarchy though. If I have to pillage a bunch, then so be it.

If I get me a leader to make an army, then the civ I am after is in big trouble. You may have to set research to zero to pay for the troops, until you capture some land.

	05-07-2004 07:15									#3
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He can see Coal, so I doubt Archers and Spearmen are an option anymore.

I suggest you get Replaceable Parts ASAP, switch all production to Artillery and Guerillas, then with a sizeable force attack the nearest neighbor that has the resources you need (Iron, primarily, for Railroads). With such little landmass it would be quite a challenge to win the game without going to war (a Diplomatic win would be your best bet, but those are no fun).

	05-07-2004 07:18									#4
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quote: Originally posted by KenderBane My 'solution' was to research Nationalism (my first Industrial age tech was obviously steampower) and pay thru the nose to upgrade spearmen to riflemen.

I think this is the right idea, but unless you were being attacked right away, I would have waited for Replaceable Parts instead.

	05-07-2004 07:57									#5
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quote: With such little landmass it would be quite a challenge to win the game without going to war (a Diplomatic win would be your best bet, but those are no fun).

Actually, Dominae, 6% of the land mass is enough to make me #2 in the game. There are 31 (!) civs; so an average civ would have about 3% of land mass. I'm at double that.

And unfortunately, the Persians declared war on me. This is gonna be brutal. His SOD of immortals versus my Spearmen/Longbowmen stacks ... Lots of corpses.

And usually do go to war early ... but I wait until I have better offensive units than the AI's defensive units (for obvious reasons); but this game, I simply don't have the resources to do anything.


And thanks for the advice ! (Keep it coming, though, I'm not great at this game, but I love it anyway).

	05-07-2004 08:21									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae He can see Coal, so I doubt Archers and Spearmen are an option anymore.

I guess this is what happens when one is not clear and state all one is thinking.

I was not talking about what to do now, IIRC he already had a plan for now.


I meant at the start when he found no horses and no iron. Of course Indistrial age is a bit late for spears and archers. Sorry for the confusion.

	05-07-2004 09:48									#7
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Your situation doesn’t sound all that bad. It sounds like the Persians declared on you so you’ll get some happiness thank you very much. If you think you can hold them off for awhile then try to buy a few military alliances against them; particularly if you can get them into a multi-front conflict. Your road network should be well developed by now and this will give your units a significant movement advantage against the Immortals which are weak on defense and slow moving. They are likely to attack the same area repeatedly which may allow you to gain control of the battle zone. The AI has a strong tendency to attack the weakest city close to them so you may be able to shift units between cities directing where they go and making them waste movement. It may be helpful if you can get a well defended stack of catapults on the high ground above their invasion path. You may get some armies out of the battle and that will really help! Just remember that battle is where humans rule and so this is where you start your march to domination. Go get em.

	07-07-2004 03:36									#8
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use artilllery units

at Regent, longbow men and artillery and spearmen are enough to beat on through in the (Very) early industrial

Jon Miller

	07-07-2004 03:36									#9
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use artilllery units

at Regent, longbow men and artillery and spearmen are enough to beat on through in the (Very) early industrial

Jon Miller

	17-07-2004 03:28									#10
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quote: Originally posted by KenderBane Actually, Dominae, 6% of the land mass is enough to make me #2 in the game. There are 31 (!) civs; so an average civ would have about 3% of land mass. I'm at double that. And unfortunately, the Persians declared war on me. This is gonna be brutal. His SOD of immortals versus my Spearmen/Longbowmen stacks ... Lots of corpses. And usually do go to war early ... but I wait until I have better offensive units than the AI's defensive units (for obvious reasons); but this game, I simply don't have the resources to do anything. And thanks for the advice ! (Keep it coming, though, I'm not great at this game, but I love it anyway).

build some cannon, upgrade the spears to rifles and build riflemen at the same time. With research you should beline to replaceable parts and crank out infantry and upgrade the LB's to guerillas (assuming you get rubber) After you have done that, go on the offensive with Infantry, Artillery and guerilla stacks. Once on the offensive your primary task is to obtain Iron and Coal. If you failed to get rubber then you will have to make do with rifles until you obtain some.

I have assumed, of course, that for some reason you are unable to trade for Iron.

	20-07-2004 10:54									#11
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As some who have been around here for awhile know, I have a track record of leading my troops into desperate situations against impossible odds.

Arty and Guerrillas... forget the Rifles and Infantry. It's gonna feel horrible, but forget about tech research for the moment. Military military military... you can take'em, starting with whatever neighbor has whatever you want and moving on from there. It's gonna be a slog, but just damn button up and do it!

	21-07-2004 10:56									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus As some who have been around here for awhile know, I have a track record of leading my troops into desperate situations against impossible odds. Arty and Guerrillas... forget the Rifles and Infantry. It's gonna feel horrible, but forget about tech research for the moment. Military military military... you can take'em, starting with whatever neighbor has whatever you want and moving on from there. It's gonna be a slog, but just damn button up and do it!

If he already had replaceable parts then I'd agree with you, but he just finished nationalism and he IS facing ancient era units so if he can build up a core of rifles and cannon he can stabilize the situation until obtaining or researching RP (which is at least 2 techs away)

	21-07-2004 19:37									#13
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Longbows and Cannon do just fine against the units I've heard mentioned, though.

Not neccessarily stop research, but slow it down and prepare to upgrade the both of them, but an offensive with longbows and cannon is doable against muskets and even...painful as it may be, rifles. Especially with those pillage specialist UU's if you still have them.

	21-07-2004 21:08									#14
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Don't longbowman have more offense than an Immortal has defense?

	21-07-2004 23:57									#15
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quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx Longbows and Cannon do just fine against the units I've heard mentioned, though. Not neccessarily stop research, but slow it down and prepare to upgrade the both of them, but an offensive with longbows and cannon is doable against muskets and even...painful as it may be, rifles. Especially with those pillage specialist UU's if you still have them.

Doable but very painful.

Longbows are great but you also need defensive units when going against immortals, and I'd rather build a lot of one unit than have to balance a spear and LB stack. Spears are also ineffective against immortals unless they occupy strong defensive terrain . Resources are not an issue with rifles, so why not build them instead?

	22-07-2004 06:27									#16
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Because Rifles suck.

	23-07-2004 00:49									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Because Rifles suck.

Rifles: 4/5/1

LB's: 4/1/1
Spears: 1/2/1

Sorry, but I'd rather have the rifles.

can you explain WHY they suck?

	23-07-2004 01:34									#18
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The main reason Riflemen suck is that they require Nationalism to build, and Nationalism is a so-so tech in a era filled with must-haves. But since KenderBane has Nationalism already, there's nothing inherently horrible about them stats-wise, especially if he's being attacked and has no resources other than Coal!

Personally I would have tried to get the AI off my back some other way (sign alliances against far off civs), and bided my time until Replaceable Parts. Artillery makes your push for resources a lot less bloody than Riflemen and Longbowmen alone. You save yourself the research/trade cost for Nationalism. And you might even get lucky and be able to trade for Iron in the meantime.

Last edited by Dominae on 23-07-2004 at 03:03

	23-07-2004 02:14									#19
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Yeah, that is what I think T meant. Not that rifles suck perse, but that many people will not research it right away.

	23-07-2004 03:38									#20
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Yeah, that is what I think T meant. Not that rifles suck perse, but that many people will not research it right away.

I agree that nationalism isn't a top priority for research, but to say that riflemen suck as a unit, particularly when the alternatitive is spears and longbows is flat out wrong.

Should kenderbane trade for Iron, if possible? Of course.
Should KB try alliances to help with the problem? Sure.

But to deal with the immediate problem (given that he'd already researched nationalism) is to build rifles and cannon and to research Replaceable parts asap.

Typically I don't research nationalism AT ALL, I let the AI's do that for me and make a trade for it. Rail, Factories, Stock Markets, Hospitals, Infantry, and Artillery are just too good of alternatives to research nationalism. But, if I can pawn off a few luxes and a bit of gold to get nationalism, I surely won't keep my pikes and muskets around waiting for replaceable parts.

	23-07-2004 05:39									#21
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Oh, OK, Rifles don't suck completely given the current situation, especialy as upcoming Infantry will be valuable.

I guess what I'm saying is that I disagree with the choice to have researched Nationalism, and would instead have gone Elec then Rep Parts.

KenderBane NEEDS offense to take additional resources, and Rifles, for that purpose, SUCK.

4-attack at the price?

No thank you, I'd rather wade in with Pikes and Longbows, knowing that I could still later upgrade the Pikes to Infantry and the LBs to Guerrillas.

	23-07-2004 14:24									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus ... I guess what I'm saying is that I disagree with the choice to have researched Nationalism, and would instead have gone Elec then Rep Parts.

I have no argument with this approach.

quote: KenderBane NEEDS offense to take additional resources, and Rifles, for that purpose, SUCK.

Rifles aren't the best for the attack role, but I'm guessing KB is going to be on the defensive at first and against immortals I'd like to build at least some rifles.

quote: No thank you, I'd rather wade in with Pikes and Longbows, knowing that I could still later upgrade the Pikes to Infantry and the LBs to Guerrillas.

Only problem here is that KB can't build pikes, or muskets. He is stuck with spears and I wouldn't want to go up against immortals with my highest defensive value at 2.

	23-07-2004 15:40									#23
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Interesting thread!

I just wanted to remind you that Nationalism allows mobilization (at least in vanilla Civ3). Nationalism would allow him to defend himself until rep. parts IMO. But, maybe I'm just a chicken

	24-07-2004 01:24									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Don Giovanni Interesting thread! I just wanted to remind you that Nationalism allows mobilization (at least in vanilla Civ3). Nationalism would allow him to defend himself until rep. parts IMO. But, maybe I'm just a chicken

true, but I rarely (If ever) use the draft. As a player who loves to fight as a demo I really don't need anything adding to unhappiness. Also my army is usually very large by the industrial age, so I don't need conscripted units.

However if I was in KB's situation I might think about drafting at least to some extent, but Theseus is right as far as the research path should be executed.

Steam Power>Medicine>Electricity>Replacable Parts

	26-07-2004 18:18									#25
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I think DG was talking about mobilization as in mobilizing the the economy for war. Drafting is a last gasp for everyone, however if you're trying to fight off 30 shield Immortals with 80 shield Rifles and 40 shield Longbows, the extra shield advantage of mobilization can be just the ticket. Personally, I rarely find a use for mobilization, but I think this may be one of the few times it is valuable.

	27-07-2004 11:53									#26
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That's the use of mobilization I was hinting at. And I think KenderBane could take it a step further, by declaring war against a small and puny civ just to build up the defence. - I do that before invasions from time to time. (One of the problems with mobilization is that you need it BEFORE you go to war, like in the real world!)

	27-07-2004 12:18									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Don Giovanni That's the use of mobilization I was hinting at. And I think KenderBane could take it a step further, by declaring war against a small and puny civ just to build up the defence. - I do that before invasions from time to time. (One of the problems with mobilization is that you need it BEFORE you go to war, like in the real world!)

Now that I think of it, KB could certainly use the mobilization feature as he's already at war and can't build any factories to help with those 80 shield rifles. The only drawback with mobilization is that you can't build city improvements while on a war-time footing, but this is probably the least of KB's worries.

	01-08-2004 03:18									#28
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People suggest building cannons. I thinks they reguire iron and saltpeter, which he (yet) doesn't have. So it's catapults, for now. And guerilla don't need rubber, I think.

	03-08-2004 23:06									#29
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catapults? He should be able to build Trebuchets...

	04-08-2004 12:44									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Tattila the Hun People suggest building cannons. I thinks they reguire iron and saltpeter, which he (yet) doesn't have. So it's catapults, for now. And guerilla don't need rubber, I think.

I didn't think that cannon needed resources, but if so then he will have to make do with Trebuchets or cats. The important point is to build significant bombardment units if you plan on going on the offensive with foot units.