25-03-2001 06:38									#1
	C#159: civ ii vs ctp2, tot, ac, etc... Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

check it out at http://apolyton.net/misc/column/159_civ2.shtml

by Hoek

	25-03-2001 06:49									#2
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I have to agree with Hoek, about the scenario making being a big piece of the longevity of this game. When I look at the outrageous amount of scenarios available for civ2, then look at the scenarios for the others (not actually named in the column itself) I have to admit his point

	25-03-2001 07:09									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

well, when it comes to number of files, i think that you have to consider these factors
1) sales for each game: civ2 has (i believed) sold more than smac and ctp together. more sales, more people making scenarios
2) years on the market: civ2 has been out for much longer and with continued releases(cic, fw, mge, tot)
3) quality: especially for ctp1/2 there are mods that totally change the game, beyond a level of renaming things(as is the usual case in civ2 mods
4) commitment of developers: as proved by the increased easiness in creating mods in ctp2, things could be easier in ctp1 as well, but it wasnt such a high priority for the company. likewise, smac didnt allow many modifications even from the file format level

	25-03-2001 07:19									#4
	Increase Your PM Length

OMG! You made "Dragons"? I actually found one of the Civ scenario makers who made some of these scenarios I found on my comp that I downloaded before I came to Apolyton!

	25-03-2001 23:54									#5
	Put an end to popups!

well...

1. Can someone give a list of registered Apolytoenrs who have actually contributed to the scenario Add Ons, like CiC and FW?

2. Isn't it time for a new scenario add on, an unofficial one? I think also people who don't have internet shouldbe able to play RedFront, Lord of the Rings, Second Front, Mongols V 3 , Gambia , etc

3. I tried to get a few community-made scenarios done, but only a few people volunteered, so I stopped working on them

4. 4th point...

	26-03-2001 01:10									#6
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Great column. Apart from having my name mentioned I totally agree that in terms of creation, which for me is the most important factor, no game came to the level of good old civ2.

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<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>Can someone give a list of registered Apolytoenrs who have actually contributed to the scenario Add Ons, like CiC and FW?
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You mean to the normal scenarios or the "bestonet" scenarios on the disks? The normal scenarios were all made by people at Microprose, like John Possidente and Mike Uhl and the like. The bestonet scenarios were scenarios that were available on the net at that time.
Those Bestonet scenarios are almost with no exception of poor quality. The way I understand it is that the creators of those add-on disks asked the -now dead- Rocky Mountain's civ2 site's webmaster to give some titles of nice scenarios.
And, apparently, this guy (I forgot his name, sorry, he's gone a long time from civ2) gave some names of scenarios he thought good. Much better scenarios were available online at that time, but apparently he didn't know those, for which reason we are now stuck with 2 poor bestonets for two add-on disks.

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<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>Isn't it time for a new scenario add on, an unofficial one? I think also people who don't have internet shouldbe able to play RedFront, Lord of the Rings, Second Front, Mongols V 3 , Gambia , etc
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Indeed, it would not be a bad move for Firaxis, Hasbro or whoever to make a new add-on disk. This time with only scenarios from the net, and picked by someone with some knowledge about it. There are still a lot of potential customers for such a last money-maker of civ2. While from their part, very little trouble has to be made.

	26-03-2001 03:21									#7
	Support Apolyton

btw, legally, i think that one can not make any kind of unofficial cd with scenarios, even if the cost only cover the expenses for the creation

	26-03-2001 19:19									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Excellent article, Hoek, with an intriguing central idea.

Possibly a designer who agreed that a slightly less complex version of their game would allow the development of a more vibrant community could include, with the full game, a somewhat slimmed down version tested with commited scenario makers such as yourself?

I would, however, support your general notion that elaboration does not necessarily improve from a different, purely game-playing as oposed to scenario making, angle. The really long lasting games - chess, bridge, poker, go, even Monopoly - all have a small number of rules. They eschew elaboration in favour of elegance. It is a paradox that in doing so they often produce endless variabily.

Necessarily Civ2 has more intricacy in it than the classics but it seems to me that the developers nevertheless managed to produce a high degree of elegance by ensuring that each aspect of the game has a comparable level of complexity to the next. Thus the scheme of things for trade, for battles, for land development and for governmental organisation are all of approximately equal complexity.

By way of contrast trading in Colonisation was relatively more complex while the War of Independance phase was too simplified.

I confidently expect to be playing Civ3 compulsively for a goodish while after it comes out. But I will keep good old Civ2 somewhere in reach and I have a sneaking feeling that the day may come when I find myself having just one more game "for old time's sake" and maybe one more visit to the strategy forum to see who is still posting. And, just as happened with SMAC, I also have a feeling that the one more game may turn out to last quite a while.

By the by, selling scenarios would only be unlawful if the current owner of the copyright objected - which I doubt they would - particularly if they were given a small royalty from each sale. So anyone thinking of doing their own "bestonnet" cd has only to approach them first to ask.

I did not follow the litigation over the copyright nor the settlement which followed it but I think Hasbro is the current owner so it is perhaps that company to whom a request should be addressed.

	27-03-2001 14:00									#9
	Suffering from ads?

hmm... I found editing in SMAX to be pretty straight-forward. Obviously it's easier in civ2, but SMAC/X is a more complicated game. In fact the level to which one can customize civ games is far greater than most other games on the market. Given that I don't really see a reason to complain that the process isn't simple enough.

I still agree with most of the article thou, I often find that I enjoy creating more so than actually playing.