07-07-2004 17:15									#1
	Enigma Full PM-box? Change here!

As enigma has been found cheating in other games, and according to Kody, wanted to cheat in this game, I will not be playing any more turns, or making any more posts etc. whilst he is still in the Angels.

I will of course come back if he is expelled from the angels faction, but only if.

CEO Chaunk.

	07-07-2004 17:31									#2
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Chaunk: Please inform me what you have heard from Kody? I am annoyed he has been saying things while the CMNs are deciding what to do, but needless to say, a protest by people for removing him will not alter any decision I make. That decision will be based on the facts. And there is no evidence that he has cheated in the DG.

If Enigma has cheated in this game, he will be dealt with. If he has not, then he will not be. Ad hominems, because he has done it in another game, are not enough reason to remove him from this game.

Please do not broadcast this, especially when all you have heard is hearsay, and you are not aware of all the facts.

	07-07-2004 17:35									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I see the point of the protest Chaunk, but I can't agree with it completely.

The last thing we need is our leader walking out on us.

Members of the board, how do we proceed? Do we join Chaunk in protest, which risks forfiture under the 48 hour rule or continue playing?

Who will be our turnplayer?

I do not have the capacity to fill this role and nominate AndiD for his active role in managing the company's communications shows his commitment to the company.

Kody said that E_N wanted to cheat and then the Angels accidentaly broke a rule? We need to be careful with how we deal with them.

I believe that Chaunk's walkout in protest will only bring about negative effects for the company.

I vote that we continue playing and recommend that Chaunk returns, or cast my vote for AndiD in the interim.

	07-07-2004 17:47									#4
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Kody posting parts of that message is absolutely abhorrent. He has posted things from private forums that are to remain there. As Kody has posted in the CMN forum, there is no evidence that Enigma has cheating in ACDGIII. WHat he does in other PBEMs is the business of those PBEMs. If someone has evidence of cheating in this DG, please tell me, and I will expel him. However at this stage, there isn't.

There has however been a breach of the private forums by Kody. Therefore all this information is privy, and must be kept quiet. I will not have a witch hunt because people believe, through hearsay, ad hominems and without evidence, that Enigma has cheated. I am (obviously) investigating.

quote: Originally posted by #endgame Kody said that E_N wanted to cheat and then the Angels accidentaly broke a rule? We need to be careful with how we deal with them.

The Angels accidentally broke a rule. I would also like to point out that it was not Enigma who broke it. While this is private information, the amount of people, including members of the CMN group, who presumed it was is staggering. It was an accident, and it wasn't Enigma.

	07-07-2004 18:00									#5
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Drogue, it was not an accusation, it was an observation based on Chaunk not seeming like someone who would deliberately post misinformation. Point taken. (Returns to T-Forming plans with simple right answers and ways to proceed)

I propose therefore that we make AndiD the turn player as stated above, and hope that Chaunk returns to the company at some point in the future.

	07-07-2004 18:04									#6
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Chaunk, I think quitting is not the answer. We need U

About this:

quote: As Kody has posted in the CMN forum, there is no evidence that Enigma has cheating in ACDGIII. WHat he does in other PBEMs is the business of those PBEMs. If someone has evidence of cheating in this DG, please tell me, and I will expel him. However at this stage, there isn't.

I'm a believer in the once a cheater always a cheater theme. I was a regular CS player some years ago, and also have played warcraft 3 Both games which are awfully demolisched by cheaters. In this game the cheating is not by altering the game but just by use of the possibilities: u CAN read the conversations ingame in all save games and several other things. See the list of forbidden things to know what u CAN do. If we can't trust enigma to not do those things we can't allow him to meddle in the game.

We should let the admins decide, but if its proven he cheats in a PBEM, then they have to follow him very closely. I would also say removal, but then he will just make an other nickname, although is character will betray him

JMHO
SafaN

	07-07-2004 18:06									#7
	Support Apolyton

I know it's not an accusation, it just seemed that it was beomcing presumed as true, and I felt the need to right this. Chaunk did not post misinformation. He got information from Kody, that Enigma has cheated in other games. I am unaware of him wanting to cheat in this game, but I will admit it's quite possible. Enigma has cheated before and has not shown remorse or a desire to stop. But we do not have a pre-crime unit here. We are watching closely, and are partway going through his turns, to check for any anomolies. If he has cheated, he will be banned. But we cannot ban him for cheating when we don't know if he has.

As soon as the investigation is complete, we will post to say the outcome.

I hope Chaunk can stay until we know whether or not he has. I expect it to the sorted in less than 48 hours, possibly sooner.

	07-07-2004 18:17									#8
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by -SafaN- We should let the admins decide, but if its proven he cheats in a PBEM, then they have to follow him very closely. I would also say removal, but then he will just make an other nickname, although is character will betray him

Double Logins are banned, so removing him from the game will mean removal. Heis being follower very closely, and has been since the start, when i first knew of any possibility of him cheating in other PBEMs.

On option, if we think he might, be can't show it, is to ask the Angels to make it that he cannot play the turn. That reduces a lot the cheating he can do. However if he has cheated, he will be removed.

I do accept the idea that since he's cheated before, he may well do here, and I also believe he quite possibly has done. I am prepared to kick him out if he has cheated. However I was upset that things in the Angels private forums were posted in a public forum. This is a CMN decision, and we will take it, based on the findings of our investigation. I understand Chaunks problem, I know from the last DG that he is a very moral player, and I admire his conscience to do what he believes is right. I suspect he will be back soon, but this needs to be cleared up thoughrally.

	07-07-2004 18:39									#9
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Kody posting parts of that message is absolutely abhorrent.

That was my own investigation you saw, not the ACDG's investigation. Note that what I've posted is very relevant to that particular PBEM far more so than the ACDG.

The fact I have copied my files into the CMNs forum for the ACDG, does not mean I think this is centered around the ACDG.

	07-07-2004 18:45									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I agree, and I am sorry if I seemed a bit harsh. I support everything you've done with regards to the other PBEMs, and I know that is where the main problem is. The problem I had was that you posted things that you could only know from reading the Angels private forum, and those things must be kept out of public forums. Everything else is your decisions, and I support what you've done.

	07-07-2004 20:44									#11
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Chaunk, I would ask you to reconsider. It sounds like Drogue is making an effort to find the truth and keep an eye on Enigma. If there is evidence Enigma cheated, he's the one who should leave, not you! Please allow the investigation to run its course.

	07-07-2004 22:58									#12
	Increase Your PM Length

CwJ.

We just became a strong team, we shouldn't waste that just because of accusations and instead continue discussing *turns* together.

Honestly, I believe Enigma in saying that while he cheated on his PBEMs, he didn't cheat in the ACDG. Apart from that, a rule that he wouldn't be an allowed turnplayer makes sense in my opinion, just as a harsh punishment.

	07-07-2004 23:07									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I am currently reconsidering, but at the moment, I see nothing to make me change my stance. It will be a shame if I feel I cannot continue, but such is life.

My sincere apologies for leaving you all in the lurch...

	07-07-2004 23:47									#14
	Support Apolyton

Hmm, ok you are protesting the fact that enigma is playing.

That took me a while to figure it out.

	08-07-2004 02:18									#15
	Get a bigger avatar today!

In our faction analysis of the Angels, didn't Tass reveal something unethical Enigma had planned to try and take control of the ACDG3? Wouldn't that come under the heading of evidence of intent?

	08-07-2004 02:20									#16
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Drogue has satisfied me that he will make an aproriate decision regarding Enigma, and as such I will be staying in the demogame, as CEO if you will still let me.

I will edit out these posts in 24 hours unless somone gives a very good reason not to do so.

C

	08-07-2004 03:13									#17
	What's Happening? Support Apolyton

I notice that we are having a discussion within our own forum that is not public in the open forum.

Can Chauck, Kody, and the Mods let us know what is happening?

I do not think any of us should take any action without knowing the facts and discussing the options.


I would like to know the allegations against Enigma, as well as the supporting evidence.

If Enigma had cheated, and I have personally not seen any evidence of him cheat to date, then the decision of what to do as a result of his action should be publically discussed and annonced in the public forum. Depending upon the severity of his alleged cheating, Ming or other Apolyton Mods should be informed to see if further action should be taken beyond the ACDG.

If he has cheated and will continue to undermine the enjoyment of others by doing so, then I would be less inclined to continue with the ACDG if he was to remain in it.

But, so far, I have seen no evidence of cheating (except for Tass has told us). I have not fully considered what he did there and how we should respond to his alleged attempt to conspire with Tass to (if true, underhandedly I far as I see it), control the game.

Although I need more time to consider what we should do, I feel for now we should not rush into a decision.



Mead

	08-07-2004 09:03									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

*ahem*

It's seems like Apolyton is working now...

I have witnessed Enigma's "cheating" firsthand. He posted a few threads on how to cheat without any other person being aware of cheating. I personally replied to his threads, without understanding the full effect on his actions. For me, how he does it is technical to me so I do not understand it, but I can vouch for CEO Chaunk that Enigma is an Apolytoner that is rather "dubious", to say the least.

quote: Originally posted by Hellenic Deity Drouge WHat he does in other PBEMs is the business of those PBEMs

While true that his past history should not influence our actions here in ACDG 3, I personally beliee it should be a reflection on his personality as well his character in general.

This post alarms me, and if the directors would allow it, I would like to enact a role of observationist/polizei of ACDG'ers as I did in the past ACDG. The safety and security of our industrial team is my foremost duty and I wish to see us prosper.

	08-07-2004 09:09									#19
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I'm glad you decided to stay on, Chaunk.

My opinion on this thread is that we should leave it as is. If Enigma is off the hook for lack of evidence, but then down the road more questions come up, it might be valuable to refer to this thread. But if your desire is to erase the fact that you resigned so Enigma doesn't get a big head about his influence, I would support deleting the thread entirely.

Last edited by jtsisyoda on 08-07-2004 at 09:21

	08-07-2004 10:05									#20
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

As a newcomer to the forums, why has Enigma proven so controversial (besides being under suspicion of cheating)? He was rejected by some of the factions initially and quite a few people has reactions towards him... This may not be an appropriate question to ask.

	08-07-2004 11:22									#21
	Inflate your Upload Space

When he first came on the scene, he ranted abusively, and I think he was banned for a while because of it. He has been described as a loose cannon more than once.

	08-07-2004 11:41									#22
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

"Loose Cannon" is a rather tame term to use...I would rather say renegade barbarian.

Adds a little bit more flavor.

	08-07-2004 13:01									#23
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by arginine As a newcomer to the forums, why has Enigma proven so controversial (besides being under suspicion of cheating)? He was rejected by some of the factions initially and quite a few people has reactions towards him... This may not be an appropriate question to ask.

He is not a newcomer. He caused a stir last time by going and playing on his own in a DG. He has also repeatedly stated that he thinks cheating is fine, if you get away with it. He will do anything to win.

	08-07-2004 13:03									#24
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Frankychan While true that his past history should not influence our actions here in ACDG 3, I personally beliee it should be a reflection on his personality as well his character in general.

I agree completely. The post I made was to show that if he hasn't cheated in this DG, I can't just through him off. I have to have evidence that he will cheat in this one, IMHO, or that he already has. That is why we did not release much, because we wanted to gether evidence before alerting him to it, as well as not wanting to judge before we know the facts.

	08-07-2004 13:07									#25
	Re: What's Happening? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Mead I would like to know the allegations against Enigma, as well as the supporting evidence.

WRT the DG, I can't. The evidence is all private Angels things. If he has cheated, he will be expelled. If he has not cheated, we have a discussion of whether his cheating on other PBEMs means he cannot participate in this one. But I cannot release information from the Angels private forum when nobody has been convicted of anything.

quote: Originally posted by Mead Although I need more time to consider what we should do, I feel for now we should not rush into a decision.

Which is exatly why it was not published last night. I wanted to consider the evidence.

Please bear with us until tonight. I have promised not to release a ruling until tonight, due to important personal reasons which I will not go into. We are looking at this seriously, we know the evidence and the action to take. Thank you.

	08-07-2004 15:05									#26
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by arginine As a newcomer to the forums, why has Enigma proven so controversial (besides being under suspicion of cheating)? He was rejected by some of the factions initially and quite a few people has reactions towards him... This may not be an appropriate question to ask.

Well, I had various chats with him in the beginning. He thinks he´s the most intelligent person on planet, he had spent his youth on the street (or so he told me), he threatened to kill everyone standing in his way, he calls almost every other person dump and not worth to stay alive and he has the desire to win rather than to learn/meet friends/have fun.
He joined the Hive faction in the last DG, and within a few weeks he made himself turnplayer (admittedly he was good) and a few days later started ranting and abusing his teammates.
Tassadar, Frankychan and Vander will probably remember that...

In General, I want him to be banned from Apolyton. However, he´s a very good turnplayer and he seems to have adopted a more bearable style on these boards (especially since he wants HongHu to like him ). So I am pleased if he is in another team and doesn´t cheat.

	08-07-2004 18:26									#27
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Drogue He is not a newcomer. He caused a stir last time by going and playing on his own in a DG. He has also repeatedly stated that he thinks cheating is fine, if you get away with it. He will do anything to win.

Drogue, I'm not sure that's a neutral tone to take.

I said I would edit out all the posts in this thread not becuase of fear that enigma will think he has too much power, but because whatever the ruling, it's best that the issue is in the past. Should enigma be ejected from the angels, then this issue is moot. If he stays, then this issue is also moot as far as we Morganites are concerned until we contact the DataAngels.

After further discussion with Drogue, he has convinced me uttterly that this matter will be dealt with correctly and efficiently. Cheating will not be allowed in the demogame. That's all we need to know.

In reterospect I acted rashly in making this thread and I apologise to all concerned. Whilst the issues did need to be raised, this was probably a poor way of doing so.

I would ask that no one else post in this thread and it be allowed to drop down the forum

C