08-07-2004 11:23									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Hercules Regarding all the expolits, the one I am most puzzled by, is the repeated reloading exploit to obtain favourable pop pods outcomes and probably related, the winning MW encounters with such high frequency. Why didn't my turn say; "Excuse me, Mr Enigma may have reloaded 3,ooo times."

E_N has developed a hack that removes that message from PBEMs

He published that some four months ago, and had all the CMN's up in arms, flaming him in his thread and demanding its retraction. He refused.

We went to Ming/Dan/Mark and within minutes the thread was removed from the forums. An unrepentant E_N still complains about that "censorship"

I know he can't help but use it - certainly in the game I'm in with him and he has admitted to it in his other games.

The real question is: Is he clean as regards ACDG3 though?

	08-07-2004 20:20									#32
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I'm sorry smacksims. Yes I have tried to use myself to influence people. But I cannot force everybody to think as I do. I do not have right to judge other people. I withdraw the statement that I would like to continue playing the HoF game.

	08-07-2004 20:59									#33
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I would like to inform everyone that is in the demo game and the SMAC pbem community, that I would like to withdraw from the ACDGIII and the pbem community.

I am doing this because I feel that we have mistreated Enigma. I understand that he has made big mistakes in the past. But nobody has announced to him in public, “No, what you did is wrong.” He has not been given a chance to say he is sorry. He has not been given a chance to prove that he will correct his mistakes. This is the first time it is announced to the public that he did something wrong. And he said that he is sorry. And he said that he will never do it again. And as a CMN in the demo game I have the opportunity to know that he has started to play honestly in the first replayed turn and the third turn where he was the turn player. I will not vouch for him that he has become an honest player. I simply believe that he, as anybody else, deserves to be given one chance to prove himself. However I understand the society is determined to banish him. I understand the bitter feelings he has caused in the past, and I have no right to judge other people’s decisions. But I personally feel what we are doing is equivalent to this: We watched without doing anything when a person is falling into a deep chasm. When he finally realizes it and tries to grab to a little tree and starts to climb back up, we throw rocks at him.

The collective consciousness is such a dangerous thing. Rules can be overlooked when people do not feel like to uphold it. People can abuse their power in deciding when and where a certain person should be punished. When a wall starts to fall, everyone joins in to push it. When it is used in a way the public deemed to be right, means can be employed that are equivalent to what is deemed to be forbidden. The traditionally set up CMN/player framework can be ignored and passwords of games can be bypassed without proper authorization, only because it is used to gather evidences to execute the person that is deemed to be the enemy by the society.

I do not have any more rights to judge other people’s action than anybody else. I also understand why you don’t see what I see, and don’t agree what I believe. Please understand this is not a blackmail trying to force anybody’s hand. This is my own protest against what I believe to be the unfairness of the collective consciousness.

The harm that is done could not be undone. But with the conclusion of this incident I believe the demo game and the pbem community will become much smoother. Please remember that it is a precious thing that we all gathered together from everywhere of the world, for the love of a game. Let us all try our best to help this world to become a more beautiful place.

Best wishes to all of you and to the game.

I love you all.

	08-07-2004 21:28									#34
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quote: Originally posted by HongHu I would like to inform everyone that is in the demo game and the SMAC pbem community, that I would like to withdraw from the ACDGIII and the pbem community. I am doing this because I feel that we have mistreated Enigma. I understand that he has made big mistakes in the past. But nobody has announced to him in public, “No, what you did is wrong.”

HongHu,

Googlie's statement below is correct. Enigma continued doing this despite the uproar and obvioous denunciations he caused. Our statements couldn't have been more clear to him to stop what he was doing. FYI.



D

quote: Originally posted by Googlie E_N has developed a hack that removes that message from PBEMs He published that some four months ago, and had all the CMN's up in arms, flaming him in his thread and demanding its retraction. He refused.

	09-07-2004 00:05									#35
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Edit: This is in reply to HongHu.

I just don't know where we have mistreated E_N. I'm not privvy to the private ACDG forums for the other teams, but I have not read any post anywhere that actually does anything to anyone about the matter.

You are getting upset and absolutist a bit too early. As I said, I plan to wait a day or two before lodging a formal complaint to the administrators of the site, to see if new things come to light. I have no idea if anyone else has already done so. If they have, it would be nice to know about it so I don't waste the mods/admins time with another complaint in parallel.

So forgive me if you know about things actually being 'done' to E_N that have nothing to do with this thread. But if you are talking about the arguments in the thread, I think you'll see that only Chaunk and I have argued for a ban (and Chaunk's post was in Bear Baiting, here). Everyone else seems to think 'Whatever, let him do whatever' is fine. So I'm really not sure what you are getting at HongHu.

-Smack

Last edited by smacksim on 09-07-2004 at 01:03

	09-07-2004 00:11									#36
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HongHu, I'm just one person. Listen to your heart on the matter, not some curmudgeon like me.

quote: Originally posted by HongHu I'm sorry smacksims. Yes I have tried to use myself to influence people. But I cannot force everybody to think as I do. I do not have right to judge other people. I withdraw the statement that I would like to continue playing the HoF game.

I do think you are using people, because you are upset, and it's a good tactic, but a little mean really. You do have the right to judge people, for yourself. If you think people like me stink, ie, people that want action taken, then that's fine. I'll still respect you, and so will everyone else. It's only the manipulation of the forums to try to get your way that won't win many friends.

-S

	09-07-2004 02:50									#37
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I would like to apologize again, if it is the appearance that I have manipulated forums, please believe me it is not my intention. When the first time I said I'm quitting my pbem for Enigma, I was not trying to pursuade anybody to accept him simply because they do not want me to leave. I was trying to encourage Enigma to say what he wanted to say and what he said to me but is afraid of saying it to all of you, or at least I believed to be so.

This time my decision of withdrawing from the forum, is not because I want to influence anybody. It is because that I want to stop this vicious circle. I want to keep my own belief, but I do not want to cause any more fighting. The wisest thing is for me to withdraw, and for the forum to regain the normal order.

I have never thought people like you stink. And I have never wanted to get my way by manipulation. One does not have to win friends. He/she does what he/she believes is right, and not does things to please others or win friends. I understand you, and I'm sure you'll understand me.

	09-07-2004 03:21									#38
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quote: Originally posted by HongHu {...} It is because that I want to stop this vicious circle. I want to keep my own belief, but I do not want to cause any more fighting. The wisest thing is for me to withdraw, and for the forum to regain the normal order. {...}

Sometimes people disagree on what to do about things. That doesn't mean they have to part ways necessarily. I do understand if you feel that the decisions to date are wrong, and wrong enough that you can't continue here in good faith. I respect that. But if you can understand the decisions and don't feel they are entirely wrong or unethical, then I just don't understand why you feel you have to leave.

'any more fighting'. I don't see that you will cause any more fighting by holding a belief that differs from others. You are not alone in your position, either. What if everytime we had disagreement, a whole group left the forums or ACDG? If others that agree with you follow suit, that's exactly what will happen in this case. I doubt that they will though, because, though they might disagree with the decisions made, they see the continuing value in the ACDG and forums in general.

The forums will regain their normal order. In fact, new Pbems and replacement pbems are starting up even as we speak. I'm sorry that you got so upset about this whole thing. And I really understand the urge to leave things that are difficult behind. I hope you will reconsider soon and come back, or not leave at all.

-Smack

	09-07-2004 06:07									#39
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***

Last edited by Kody on 09-07-2004 at 14:05

	09-07-2004 06:50									#40
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I'm tired of this.

This is the MOST un-fun PBEM I've ever been involved with. The tone started sour and has migrated to acidic.

I have no interest in character-less win-at-any-cost contests, nor in people I wouldn’t care to associate with in Real Life.

I'm leaving for a while. For the majority of the people in the ACDG of good character, and from whom I can learn a great deal, I apologize in advance. See you in a while.

Hydro

	09-07-2004 07:09									#41
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Edit: About Hydro's post: This must be a mis-post? This is HH's thread, not a pbem. I replied though, so I'll keep it.

I guess I just don't understand this kind of reaction very well. If I did, I would probably not post so much. So I apologize for dampening the spirits around here, if I've done that.

From my perspective, yeah, a few Pbems are dead b/c what happened. This seems to me to be because of cheating and the difficulty in undoing that, not because people want to discuss the issues. Perhaps I'm wrong yet again. It's as if conflict and disagreement have to be ignored or repressed in order for people to not feel like 'This place sucks'. I find that unfortunate if true. A similar reaction is found in Tassadar's complaints about the bickering. It's not bickering. It's not needless whining. It's a few people trying to do what's right, and a few people trying to protect their friends and feelings. These are all good things it seems to me. Where have I gone astray?

-Smack

Kody, you sound like E_N is dead and you are on the chopping block. From what I can tell, E_N is just out of the ACDG. Am I missing something? I've thanked you several times for coming forward. I think you should be praised for your detailed concerns and trying to help E_N and at the same time respecting the other members of the forum. Is there some dark alliance of 'hate-Kody's' that are upset because you didn't come forward sooner? If there are, they should well consider how hard it was for you to come forward at all. -S

Last edited by smacksim on 09-07-2004 at 07:19

	09-07-2004 07:27									#42
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No, Smack, you haven't gone astray

You - and Hydro - and I have been around long enough to see the various iterations of the E_N personality type (about 1 per year, I reckon) and the Community each time has had to coalesce around a decision to either ignore, endure, or extinguish, and the latter course was always for the good of the many.

Remember Doom? and HARDMAN? and even trippin' daily when he was high on his medication?

We are a small community of smac/xers - around 300 or 400 maybe - in a larger Apolyton community of 55,000 or so. We do care for each other and generally enjoy each others' company, and we rely on trust, fairplay and consideration and respect for each other's opinions. When these norms are broken, then naturally we "circle the wagons"

Now the past has passed. Let's strive going forward to make this ACDG3 a wonderfully satisfying gaming experience - in terms of gameplay, roleplaying, fiction writing, artwork and general teambuilding for all of us. And if a chastened, repentent, reformed Enigma_Nova re-appears as himself or in an alter-ego, then let's welcome the prodigal son with open arms

And if HongHu and Hydro are with him, then we will be blessed indeed

Googlie

	09-07-2004 07:31									#43
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Well said Googlie Those are my sentiments too.

	09-07-2004 20:54									#44
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Thanks Googlie and smacksim. I've PMed you to explain why I had to withdraw. In fact I agree with most of what you have said. And I like to apologize once more, to those who are hurt by me in the process. I did not mean that at all.

Hydro, I do not know if you meant that you are leaving your pbems or the ACDG or what. If so please reconsider. The mere fact that people are debating here is because we do not tolerate character-less win-at-any-cost.

	09-07-2004 21:41									#45
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No more OPen Book, HH? PBEMs take no time at all!

* MrWhereItsAt throws up his hands in sheer exasperation

That's three PBEMs - THREE, that I had been hopeful for that have started and ended before they've even been properly started. If I didn't know better I'd say it was a conspiracy so I'd never manage one. Civ3 PBEMs don't have this problem, nor Civ2.

* MrWhereItsAt is very put out by this nonsense

To clarify, I can;t bring myself to be angry at you HH, but I can;t get much more irritated by this silly situation

	10-07-2004 03:14									#46
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Googlie, wise as usual.

	10-07-2004 03:17									#47
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HH,

The controversy with EN has left dead bodies (you, Obs) and wounded people all over the place. I HATE that, and I generally don’t hate much of anything. If I have to force myself to become involved in ACDG then it is time to take a break and go back into my cage to heal for a while.

But, I’ll make you a deal. If you can bury your profound disappointment and distress this conflict has caused then so can I. I’ll come back if you will.

Hydro

	10-07-2004 05:07									#48
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Everyone, myself included, wants you back.

	10-07-2004 05:37									#49
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Me too,

	12-07-2004 08:09									#50
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Hydro, you are blackmailing me.

	12-07-2004 08:31									#51
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Yup. Rather Machiavellian of me, isn’t it? After all, Good isn't Dumb (an oblique reference to my treatise on Gaian Philosophy, available to all Gaians and Moderators in good standing at the Super Secret Gaian private forum).

	12-07-2004 13:13									#52
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I'm just reading it 1st time (unfortunatly) I wasnt aware of what was happenning here.

I have just one think to say:

Hunghu stay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Ur probably the player I most enjoyed playing with in poly and I'll be happy to go on playing with you.

BTW: I dont realy ceare if E_N cheats me an wins, but it is the rights of others to feel like they do...

	12-07-2004 19:25									#53
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Sigh, you guys. I know I know.

Hydro you are such a bad boy. You managed to bring a smile to my face. Thanks.

And Herc, thanks for your Hello thread. It was deleted before I got to see it, but somehow I heard the music.

It is people like you that keep my heart alive. Thank you. You know that I won't care if I was told that people will hate me or lose respect of me if I don't come back. Ok I do care but I won't say it. I will not surrender.

I promise I'll think about it ok Hydro? Please don't wait for me. The game is already going. The Gaians needs you.

	12-07-2004 19:34									#54
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Surrender...

And the moderators could use you.

	12-07-2004 21:07									#55
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Till today I still believe that it is the right thing to do to disclose cheating and to give people a chance, and I still believe it is not right to play god. But I understand people are with Kody, and I know I can't change what others think. I don't want to having to give up my own belief, but I also don't want my nature reactions to be
viewed in others eyes as I'm trying to force anybody. I don't want to argue with the entire population any more, so the only road for me to take is to escape. I say I don't care, but not being understood by many is hard. Please forgive me if I'm still not courageous enough.

	12-07-2004 21:44									#56
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c'mon HH (and all others...) it is just a game!!
why does every budy take it so seriusly
so E_N cheated and got on all players nerves, so what?
I'm not so sure not giving him another chance (considering it is just a game) is the best way (thouhg I'm not sure of the contrary),
but I'm not quiting gaming becouse of that, that won't help and I would be taking his punishment on me too
what good will it do if you leave?
IT IS JUST A GAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
hoooo....doesn't matter, once you got on the wagon you won't go back any way....

	12-07-2004 22:57									#57
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**Hydro looks out from cage**

HH still isn’t back?

rats

**Hydro goes back into cage and shuts door**

	12-07-2004 23:53									#58
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Ok you go back to Gaians first Hydro. I'll go after you.

	12-07-2004 23:58									#59
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I never signed out. I'm simply in lurker mode.

So, will I see you there? Have I used enough guilt and guile to cajole you back?

Hydro

	13-07-2004 00:21									#60
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do we have you back?!