08-07-2004 15:06									#1
	AU601: Aqualung71's DAR Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Monarch level, AU mod, versus Paddy the Scot

Well Alexman pronounced the curse, and as one who not only voted for the Greece-Rome combination but actually suggested it in the first place, I was bound to draw Rome.

And so yes, I did

Settled on the starting location. Worker moved to the Cow. Hardly worthwhile exploring for a better one, since we are on a river with cows next door. So didn't waste 2 worker turns by sending him to the mountain. It's also what I would call a favourable coastal start, since the inlet we are next to means that 2/3 of the tiles are land based. Moving inland was therefore silly, since you would have to move 2 tiles inland to avoid the "non-coastal city with crappy 1 food coastal squares" syndrome, and also forgo the river. So any move would most likely have taken 2 turns and with highly questionable benefit. Besides, the gold mountain next door is highly appealing, 2 BG are not too shabby and 3 grassland forests to chop are useful!

Started building a Curragh for exploration, though I may yet swap to a Warrior since only one other civ is seafaring so we may not find anybody too early with a Curragh

	09-07-2004 05:43									#2
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Played up to 3700BC with Paddy last night - a good start.

My worker began by roading. Irrigation would have given me growth one turn sooner, but I wanted to get a leg-up on research. This was probably a mistake

Pottery being researched, since not many civs have that and I like to build early Granaries - particularly when there are not many humans around to threaten my capital Will probably then move on to Writing for the Philosophy play - again, only one other civ has Alphabet IIRC. The Wheel would also be a good choice.

First Warrior went off exploring and found the Silk and goody hut.

I don't generally like starts that are cramped into a coastal corner, since you can't optimise expansion efforts and distance corruption becomes a problem earlier than it otherwise would....but we shall make the best of it and forge a strong Roman Empire yet!

Attachment: au601 3700bc.jpg
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	09-07-2004 20:42									#3
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Not much to report tonight - I went out, so we only got 2 turns in, up to 3600BC.

Worker has finished irrigating the cow and has moved to the BG to mine and road.

But my roving warrior has uncovered a veritable treasure trove of delights.....wheat, flood plains, and Ivory to top it all off....plus a nice gold hill And here is the frustration of PBEM - I can now see my next 5 city sites, and we're only 8 turns into the game!!!

I had started on a Barracks as a pre-build for a Granary, since I'll have Pottery in 3 turns, but with all that nice food-rich land I am seriously considering breaking one of my usual rules and building a settler first, and maybe even another worker before the Granary!

Caesar shall sleep on that important decision!

	10-07-2004 20:19									#4
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Went out again, sorry Paddy. But still, we managed to play to 3350BC.

Discovered Pottery, the Wheel next, for trade purposes. My warrior popped a settler, which made it easier for me to decide to switch my Barracks prebuild over to a Granary instead of a settler.

Meanwhile, the new settler is headed towards flood plains no. 1 , which though further from the capital than I would have liked for my second town (6 or 6.5 tiles), also has a wheat resource which means we can use it to grow quickly and produce a couple of workers early.

Rome is now at size 3 and will have it's Granary completed in 8 turns. With the nearby flood plains, extra workers will be vital in this game, so the bonus settler is a major early advantage once he gets to his designated breeding grounds ;

We're also benefiting from playing at Monarch level, which has allowed us to send our second Warrior out exploring and leaving only one at home with a pop of 3, and not having to use the luxury slider. Bottom line: this obviously helps with research.

Short term priorities from here - meet some nearby civs to hopefully bring on trade opportunities and reduce research costs, connect silk resource for happiness and settle bonus settler town. The Ivory keeps looking at me seductively, but it will have to wait. Mathematics is still a long way off

	28-07-2004 21:34									#5
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After a couple of weeks break, Paddy and I got together and played this one hotseat until about 3am one night We made it to 690BC, so I'll post all that happened here......not much, since we're both the peaceful friendly tpyes, not like Dom and Krill

Settled town of Veii from our popped settler in 3100BC, by the western flood plains. Worker will now road south and west towards the new town. Granary nearly completed.

We soon completed the Wheel, met Carthage and traded for BW and Masonry. Writing would be next, which we completed around 1910 and traded around for IW and CB, now having also met the Celts. We chose to research CoL next, hoping to be far enough ahead of the AI (and Paddy!) to still get to Philosophy first and take Republic for free. We discovered to our pleasure that Iron was readily available next to our “free” town, and that Horses were not too far away.

By 1550BC we had discovered CoL, and also picked up Mysticism and HBR in trades. Philosophy would be next and we had also met Egypt and the Germanic Tribes. Iron had been connected and our first Legionary’s were being built.

We soon found Babylon and traded for more techs – Polytheism and Literature. We also commenced building the Pyramids, which astoundingly nobody else was building until the 1400BC’s.

We discovered Philosophy in 1075BC and took Republic as our free tech, though delayed changing governments since we were building the Pyramids and so expansion was relatively slow (few settlers being built since our capital was tied up and we only had one other Granary). We also picked up MM from trading along the way.

By 690BC we were 7 turns from Construction with only Currency to go in the Ancient Age, 3 turns from the Pyramids and had started building the SoZ. We were ahead of all civs in score except Persia, and were the leaders in power and culture.

Our next challenge will be to redouble our expansion efforts to ensure Carthage does not get too close, and build our military. We will start by moving a few Legionary’s out towards the Carthage lands so as to bop any Settlers they try to send towards us. Then we will start prodding the AI (specifically, Persia, Egypt and Babylon) towards war with Greece

Attachment: au601 690bc.jpg
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	28-07-2004 21:36									#6
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Here's the view from the domestic advisor:

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	28-07-2004 21:39									#7
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Oh no, crisis! 670BC and Persia built the Pyramids when we had 2 turns to go. Major setback!!! Now I'm mad. Switched it over to SoZ and wasted about 70 shields.

Now it's time to switch to Republic and get these alliances started against that Greek Scotsman bastard. Stay tuned!

	29-07-2004 06:42									#8
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I built an embassy in 650BC with both Persia and Babylon, though neither would accept an alliance against Greece for any price. Better keep making them happy for a while.

	30-07-2004 22:55									#9
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We played up to 530BC. I have continually tried to bribe the Persians, Babylonians and Egyptians into war against the Greeks, but they have steadfastly refused. Perhaps Paddy the wise Scot has arranged trade deals with them in anticipation of my Machievellian tactics.

We have just completed Construction and now only have Currency to go until the Middle Ages. We’ve also moved some Legionarys out west to check on the AI settlement rate, but all seems quiet out there – just the lone Carthagian town on the Iron resource (which we plan to surround) and a Persian town that must have been set up via a Galley from across the inland sea.

Build queue is basically units and Libraries, which will allow us to devote less of our commerce towards research, retaining more for the higher support costs as we move into Republic.

	02-08-2004 09:08									#10
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Why Republic? I could see doing it in SP, but with a human opponent quite possibly lining up alliances against you, and with how low free unit support is under the AU Mod, I can see unit support costs being a huge problem over time.

	05-08-2004 10:13									#11
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The simple answer is "because I'm stupid". I had totally forgotten we were playing the AU mod with its reduced support levels (none of my other PBEM games use the AU mod) and by the time I realised it was too late, so I'm going to have to either live with it until Democracy or switch into Monarchy....probably the latter

	05-08-2004 10:24									#12
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370BC: The Egyptians called us up for an alliance against the Germanics. It was well past the time for some warring, so we agreed despite not intending to send troops anywhere, in the hope our relationship would improve so we can get them into war against the Greeks. Persia was also at war with the Germanics so we signed an alliance with them. With both deals we netted over 120g + 1gpt from Egypt.

Our AC was wandering around Carthage lands and came across a settler/NM pair. Our policy is to destroy any settlers since we cannot attack AI towns, so we attacked – and hang the consequences. NM killed and 2 workers bagged….though they may commit suicide before they are able to make it back home to contribute to our economy. We also brought the Persians into our war with Carthage, at the cost of Construction, but it made them gracious.

We now find ourselves at war with 2 civs, but not the hated Greeks!

War with Carthage does not concern us greatly. They seem to be a basket case in this game, though I can't quite work out why. Anyway, it will enable us to expand in their direction, and hopefully the Persians will take out some of their cities.

	05-08-2004 10:37									#13
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270BC: Carthage is seemingly reduced to 6 towns of 1 population each, though with no apparent significant battles. They must have seriously screwed up their economy!

Persia, Egypt and Babylon will still not enter an alliance against the Greek barbarians, though they remain polite towards us. I wonder what that devious Paddy is up to!

As Nathan has pointed out, we have probably made a mistake in choosing Republic, however the unit support costs are not hurting too much at this stage. Persia has entered the Middle Ages behind us, and unfortunately scored Feudalism for their free tech, which we are also researching. All other civs are several techs behind except Egypt, who are only trailing by Construction.

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	05-08-2004 13:17									#14
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Are you at war with the Greeks? In the current version of the game, as best I can tell, it is impossible to get an alliance against a civ unless either you or your prospective alliance partner is already at war with the victim of the alliance.

	05-08-2004 19:31									#15
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Really? Hmmm, I didn't know that. No, I'm not at war with Greece yet, so perhaps I'd better declare war then go for the alliance. Thanks

	08-08-2004 19:54									#16
	210BC Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

1 turn to go for Feudalism.

A couple of turns ago we purchase Monarchy from the Celts, in exchange for about 5 techs!!! What extortion! Oh well, they shall pay later for their crimes. I am considering switching into Monarchy once we research Feudalism, so we don't have to worry about the support costs and WW under a Republic. Should have thought about that before, so a clear mistake there! Still, we are doing ok so far so a second government change won't put us back too much. If I go ahead with it, I then intend to declare war on Greece and ask my friends to fight it for me

Babylon called us up for an ROP which we agreed to since they are so far away. Xerxes also asked for one, but he had a snowflakes chance in hell of getting it! Too close, plus Persia is the leading civ. Never trust Xerxes!

We also gifted Monarchy to Babylon. By my calculations, this was the only tech Paddy has that not all other civs have, so this removes his one tech trading opportunity.

Oh yeah, and Carthage asked for peace, but with 12 turns to go on our MA with Persia, no dice They've got nothing to offer anyway, and have no military to speak of. I'm hoping Persia will wipe them out so I can take some of their land and continue my REX.

	09-08-2004 19:35									#17
	150BC Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

A landmark year for the future planning of the Roman Empire.

We declared war on Greece (not particularly easy to work out how to do that in PBEM when you don't actually attack any units, I must say ). The required MA's with Persia, Egypt and Babylon were then put in place at a collective cost of around 200g (mostly for Persia) and a couple of old techs.

The only other civ I'm not at war with is the Celts....strangely I couldn't establish an embassy with them even though they discovered Writing long ago. May this be because I am in anarchy?

Anyway, obviously I pulled the trigger and went for the second government change (yeh, still BC and already 2 government changes.....clever boy this one! )

Still 2 turns of Anarchy to go, but I thought what the heck, may as well ask my friends to go pay Paddy a visit regardless. Now let's see if they actually do something

The foreign advisor's screen is pretty interesting now:

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Last edited by Aqualung71 on 09-08-2004 at 19:50

	09-08-2004 19:50									#18
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I ran into the same thing playing the SP version of this: no embassies while in anarchy.

	09-08-2004 20:04									#19
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Well I guess that's another thing I've learned during this game

I suppose then that I will have to sign the Celts up into the Holy Roman Alliance in 2 turns when the Empire emerges as a Monarchy after its short-lived and unsuccessful flirtation with being a Republic.

One thing is for sure....there shall be no Senate over-ruling Aqualicius' delcaration of war on the stinking Greeks!

	12-08-2004 05:59									#20
	110BC Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

A comedy of errors

My inept playing of this game continues.

Rome's capital has been captured by the pathetic Carthaginians, who sneaked a galley up our south-eastern coast and landed a single archer next to the unprotected city of Rome. As I was in Anarchy at the time, I wasn't paying much attention to my empire....add that to the usual PBEM problem of not remembering where you are up to when you open the save and not paying enough attention since you have 10 other saves waiting for you, and the result is I forgot all about the Galley, played the save and sent it back to Paddy......to find the next turn when we emerged into a new Monarchy that Rome was now in Carthaginian hands (with its SoZ) and the new Roman capital was Pompeii. In fact, I didn't even notice it for 2 turns since there is no pop-up in PBEM.

Of course, Rome was repcatured the turn after the Emperor finally discovered the tragedy, minus it's Library, Barracks, Marketplace, Granary and some population

I submit the following screenie as evidence of my stupidity

Appropriate responses expressing mirth and ridicule may now follow

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Last edited by Aqualung71 on 12-08-2004 at 06:14

	12-08-2004 06:07									#21
	Remove this text

A bit costly, but you could make it up eventually with a bunch of MM.

	12-08-2004 06:07									#22
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On the bright side, a Palace jump to Pompeii, being 2 cities to the west of Rome, is probably not a bad thing in the longer term

Anyway, nothing much to report. Rome is nearly finished its second Granary, then will start on a Barracks so that the AC get their extra hitpoint, then will rebuild the Library and Marketplace. So the city will probably only lose 500 years of develpment and production!!!

Oh yeah, the alliance with Persia against Carthage ended so we made peace (surprise, surprise!). Costly war, that one The Egyptian alliance against the Germanics also ended, so we made peace with them too.

I'm getting impatient with my slow expansion. It may be time to institute the Roman GA to try to make up some lost ground. Stray AI units abound at the moment,, so it won't be too difficult to choose the timing of a GA.

	12-08-2004 06:17									#23
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And Paddy has been complaining long and hard about my traitorous behaviour in setting half the world against him, so at least he's being kept busy and distracted for the time being while I arrange for the execution of those minions responsible for the scandalous sacking of Rome

	12-08-2004 10:41									#24
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What you said about losing the marketplace and library got me looking back to your 270 BC screenshot. What was your logic in shifting over to city improvements when there was still land left available to REX into?

	12-08-2004 19:12									#25
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Good point Nathan.

Since AU503 and AU601, I haven't been playing much SP at all. I've been playing almost exclusively PBEM for the last 3 months. I think you can see that by some of the mistakes I've made in this game so far

I have therefore approached this game more as a PBEM than a SP. In reality, it is more of an SP game with an interesting PBEM twist thrown in. At some point one of the humans may be eliminated and it will then revert to a normal AU game.

Most PBEM's do not have AI, or only have a couple. Because the land grab is not so pronounced when playing mainly against humans, and defence is much more important due to the devious nature of the human mind ( ), in PBEM it is much more important to control your growth and match it with building a reasonable defence force in parallel with a decent economy.

Specifically in relation to this game then, I set out to build 3 Granaries (initially only 1, but when I was beaten to the Pyramids I built a couple more), then oscillate those 3 towns between building settlers/workers and improvements/military. I usually try to get at least a Library and possibly Marketplace built in the most productive towns fairly early. This really helps in PBEM games playing against humans who often don't place enough emphasis on research. I've scored a few SGL's this way, which can really turn a PBEM game in your favour. Another AU enthusiast who plays a lot of PBEM is Sabrewolf, and I get the impression his style is similar to this too (except he's better than me!).

Right now I am in a phase where several towns will be put on settler duty as soon as they have finished their current build, to expand rapidly then activate a GA after the empire has reached a greater size and population.

So the short answer I guess is that I'm kinda out of practice with SP. The longer answer is that I've developed my play style more along the lines of PBEM, where the uber-REX is not as important as in SP, and in fact often dangerous and counterproductive.....and more in favour of building a better military earlier (which probably guards better against AI invasion anyway) and ensuring a more rapid economic build-up in the latter Ancient Age instead of expanding early and not building an economy until the mid-Middle Ages.

This AU course is a good introduction to PBEM for those of us who haven't played this format very much. But play PBEM against 3-5 other humans with no AI and you will find a completely different experience. It becomes a lot more about diplomacy - I recommend you try a few more games Nathan, as I think you would enjoy it. The added challenge for you, being the player that you are, would be trying to avoid falling victim to the "tall poppy" syndrome

Last edited by Aqualung71 on 12-08-2004 at 19:48

	13-08-2004 10:47									#26
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I definitely agree about this game's having a very different flavor from PBEMs involving larger numbers of human players. I've played a couple of those in the past, but there are two main reasons why I don't play more of them. One is the huge amount of time that PBEM games tend to consume for me. The other is that I'm not all that fond of the politics of deception, the back-stabbing, and the "gang up on the leader" mentality that can so easily become parts of such games. It's hard to get as enthusiastic about building up a the world's leading civilization when I know that in doing so, I'm painting a bullseye on it.

Nathan

	15-08-2004 15:55									#27
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I agree with the sentiment Nathan. What it comes down to I've found is finding a good group of guys where you know that that the "3 against 1" scenario is not going to happen. Even though I've only been playing PBEM intensively for 4 months, there are a bunch of guys that are there because they get a kick out of historical role playing and "honourable diplomacy", and while they of course try to win the game, do not take the "win at all costs" attitude. It is those games that I enjoy playing the most, and if you're interested I'd be very happy to try to start up such a game with you and a few reliable souls.....notwithstanding the fact that you'd kick all our butts anyway!

With the time spent, I sympathise with your point there. Lots of guys say " big deal, 5 minutes a turn". These are not AU fanatics like us who srcoll through every city each turn to minimise production times and maximise growth rates by sharing tiles between cities. I can sometimes take 30 minutes or more for a single PBEM turn, particularly in a tournament game. when you're playing 20 PBEMs, it can turn into a major daily time commitment. Which is of course why I seldom play SP these days.

	16-08-2004 12:07									#28
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Back to the game.

We finished Montheism and sold it to Egypt for 119g + 17gpt, then to the Germanics for 68g + 7gpt and a worker. This replenished the coffers and gave us some good income to keep the research pace high.

Rome has now completed its Granary and Barracks again. Library is next on the agenda. We also have 4 Settlers at various stages of completion to push out our REX before our GA is generated, west across the sparse Carthaginian lands. We have a strong military against all civs except Greece, compared to whom we are average. This is not surprising since Paddy is at war against 3 civs at the moment, so will be busy building units (and probably neglecting his economy). This will allow us to continue REXing without much risk, though we need to watch the war against the Greeks quite carefully to ensure there are no nasty surprises approaching our borders.

The strange diplomatic restrictions with the Celts continue. Though we established an Embassy with Brennus several turns ago in order to bring them into the world anti-Greek league, our diplo screen only offers MA's against Egypt, Germanics, Persians and Carthaginians. Presumably, Celts have no diplomatic relations with Babylon or Greece (ie, no embassy), which prevents an MA against those civs. I never realised that was the case - perhaps it's a PBEM quirk.

	16-08-2004 20:10									#29
	250AD Inflate your Upload Space

The next milestone has been reached, and it's clear that the human scores in our game are well behind some of the other Monarch level games. This is not a good indictment of the standard of play in this thread

Anyway, Rome has built a bunch more settlers and is sending them out to intermingle new towns with the existing Carthaginian towns, with the ultimate objective of reaching the inland sea and linking up with Persia. We have also sent a couple of AC northwards through Germanic lands (and arranged an ROP) to get a better look at what is happening in the Greek wars of our allies. We may also need to sign an ROP with Persia to send observers up through the western route.

We renewed the holy MA's against Greece with Persia, Egypt and Babylon.

Engineering is only a turn away, as is the newly rebuilt Library in Rome - almost back to its former glory, minus a Marketplace and Palace!

	16-08-2004 21:42									#30
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What's probably going on with your Celtic diplomacy is that the Celts haven't even met the Greeks and Babylonians yet. They can't ally against a civ they've never met.