09-07-2004 17:24									#1
	Military Matters Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Now that we have a bloodthirsty SMC , we need to decide what to do with the new knowledge we have gained - Tanks.

Tanks will take us quite a time to build, and we will also need a number of Caravels to transport them anywhere to attack someone. Thus I think it could serve our purpose to have some Caravans sent to close (Egyptian?) cities for fast cash to rush our units with. About 400 gold per Tank is necessary, and we'll have to acquire the first few shields ourselves (new the cost is 960 gold ).

An interesting, and perhaps daring thought struck me as I was looking at just how much cash we needed for Tanks. The Zulus are not as huge as the Celts, and they have Leo's Workshop in one of their cities. If we could build a number of Crusaders and take the city with a few Tanks, we would, upon getting a new tech (we could probably time things so we get one next turn - unless the tech we get from plundering the city counts...?) we would suddenly have a lot of freely upgraded Tanks where the Crusaders were. This could mean we were able to war a bit more successfully. The Zulus have a plethora of other useful wonders too, like Magellans for our Caravel speed, the UN (peace with any civ we want!), the Cure for Cancer and Adam Smith's. Whaddaya reckon of them first? They are close too, being only 8 tiles from Apolytonia, even closer than the Egyptians.

When we next choose a tech (1-2 turns away), we will have the choice of Physics (nothing, but leads to Frigates and Galleons), Feudalism (Pikes, leading towards Knights, Dragoons, Alp Troops, Cav, Marines), Engineering (nothing, no need as we have Gunpowder already), Metallurgy (Cannons), Democracy (towards Rifles and Spies), Medicine (leads towards Engineers), Theory of Gravity (nothing, leads towards Atomic stuff ).

From all of those I think the most beneficial from a military POV is perhaps Metallurgy, which gets us Cannons, a cheap unit which has almost the same punch as a Tank.

	09-07-2004 20:29									#2
	Re: Military Matters Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt An interesting, and perhaps daring thought struck me as I was looking at just how much cash we needed for Tanks. The Zulus are not as huge as the Celts, and they have Leo's Workshop in one of their cities. If we could build a number of Crusaders and take the city with a few Tanks, we would, upon getting a new tech (we could probably time things so we get one next turn - unless the tech we get from plundering the city counts...?) we would suddenly have a lot of freely upgraded Tanks where the Crusaders were. This could mean we were able to war a bit more successfully. The Zulus have a plethora of other useful wonders too, like Magellans for our Caravel speed, the UN (peace with any civ we want!), the Cure for Cancer and Adam Smith's. Whaddaya reckon of them first? They are close too, being only 8 tiles from Apolytonia, even closer than the Egyptians.

IIRC there is just 1 little flaw in the above...crusaders or whatever horse typed unit will not upgrade to tanks...I'm sorry.
(this next to the fact that the city spoken of might have 3 or 4 defending units: type riflemen and alpine(looking at the cities-> modern age)

quote: When we next choose a tech (1-2 turns away), we will have the choice of Physics (nothing, but leads to Frigates and Galleons), Feudalism (Pikes, leading towards Knights, Dragoons, Alp Troops, Cav, Marines), Engineering (nothing, no need as we have Gunpowder already), Metallurgy (Cannons), Democracy (towards Rifles and Spies), Medicine (leads towards Engineers), Theory of Gravity (nothing, leads towards Atomic stuff ).

If we get the option of democracy I think it might be our best choice to go for it(and then switch to Demo)...
(no more corruption, no bribery by others,...)

Shade

	09-07-2004 21:45									#3
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Now that we have a bloodthirsty SMC , we need to decide what to do with the new knowledge we have gained - Tanks.

More inside stuff...what is SMC??

quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Tanks will take us quite a time to build, and we will also need a number of Caravels to transport them anywhere to attack someone. Thus I think it could serve our purpose to have some Caravans sent to close (Egyptian?) cities for fast cash to rush our units with. About 400 gold per Tank is necessary, and we'll have to acquire the first few shields ourselves (new the cost is 960 gold ).

Tanks WILL take a long time to build if they are not rushed; but, where do you come up with these numbers?? Build one turn in a 4shield/turn city and the price is 224g to incrementally rush a Tank. No way we can afford, or should anyone be so profligate, as to buy anything outright. Incrementally rushing a Tank from scratch costs 300g (120 + 25X3 + 105).

This "let's trade from colony cities with Egypt" folly was put to bed long ago by Sparrowhawk. The payoffs do not even cover the value of a camel.

quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt An interesting, and perhaps daring thought struck me as I was looking at just how much cash we needed for Tanks. The Zulus are not as huge as the Celts, and they have Leo's Workshop in one of their cities. If we could build a number of Crusaders and take the city with a few Tanks, we would, upon getting a new tech (we could probably time things so we get one next turn - unless the tech we get from plundering the city counts...?) we would suddenly have a lot of freely upgraded Tanks where the Crusaders were.

If Tanks are available then someone has already built Automobile, right?? Let's not go tilting at windmills. Crooks to Tanks is a pipe dream. Leo's is dead.

quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt When we next choose a tech (1-2 turns away), we will have the choice of Physics (nothing, but leads to Frigates and Galleons), Feudalism (Pikes, leading towards Knights, Dragoons, Alp Troops, Cav, Marines), Engineering (nothing, no need as we have Gunpowder already), Metallurgy (Cannons), Democracy (towards Rifles and Spies), Medicine (leads towards Engineers), Theory of Gravity (nothing, leads towards Atomic stuff ). From all of those I think the most beneficial from a military POV is perhaps Metallurgy, which gets us Cannons, a cheap unit which has almost the same punch as a Tank.

Previously, we had decided upon getting Engineers, but Metal is good too. It also allows coastal forts which Apoly' needs more than any other white good presently available.

I would not agree with your analysis of the other techs. We already have Medicine and Engineering is not as useless as you say. Sewers would be good I think, and it is also on the path to Fundy.

Monk

	09-07-2004 22:13									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk More inside stuff...what is SMC??

Supreme Millitary Commander (aka moi <--trademark smiley)

quote: If Tanks are available then someone has already built Automobile, right?? Let's not go tilting at windmills. Crooks to Tanks is a pipe dream. Leo's is dead.

look on the bright side: the AI can't use it either to upgrade it's units...

Shade

	10-07-2004 00:23									#5
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It's a shame about Leo's, but, yes, that should be obsolete now.

Allowing Apolytonia to grow by getting Sewers would be helpful to our income, research, and production. I think that if we discover Chemistry then Explosives, we would be able to research Sanitation. Apolytonia Caravans ought to speed up research greatly. Giza is 4 turns away, Rhymney is 8. Which would pay off best? Apolytonia can build a Caravan about every 8 turns.

How is Sanitation on the path to Fundy?

	10-07-2004 00:53									#6
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I think we are going to have to buy most of our offensive army through Caravan deliveries and rushbuilds. At least until we use the first one to capture some more productive cities.

Even then, the idea of delivering tanks by slow Caravel across unfriendly waters is dangerous. The irony of it is delicious though!

	10-07-2004 01:18									#7
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quote: Originally posted by cavebear It's a shame about Leo's, but, yes, that should be obsolete now. Allowing Apolytonia to grow by getting Sewers would be helpful to our income, research, and production. I think that if we discover Chemistry then Explosives, we would be able to research Sanitation. Apolytonia Caravans ought to speed up research greatly. Giza is 4 turns away, Rhymney is 8. Which would pay off best? Apolytonia can build a Caravan about every 8 turns. How is Sanitation on the path to Fundy?

I don't understand. Engr' is a prerequisite for both Sanitation and Fundy; but, they are on different paths from each other. Neither Chem or Explo are on the path for Sanitation but we could then do Engr', which will open it up. But, first, we will need to research The Wheel.

Size of the delivery city, and thus, greater number of arrows worked, is an important consideration, perhaps more important than distance. The payoff will be ~2.5-3X than the quicker Egyptian delivery to a smaller city.

Monk

	10-07-2004 01:27									#8
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quote: Originally posted by cavebear I think we are going to have to buy most of our offensive army through Caravan deliveries and rushbuilds. At least until we use the first one to capture some more productive cities. Even then, the idea of delivering tanks by slow Caravel across unfriendly waters is dangerous. The irony of it is delicious though!

Before we take Tanks to sea and attack the formidable Zulu, should not we take care of the Suefolk and Egyptians on our flank?? They are lower on the Powergraph, closer, and do not require a sea assault. From this more substantial base, and with plundered Techs, perhaps we will be able to ferry our Tanks in Transports.

The irony would be delicious.

Monk

	10-07-2004 01:35									#9
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Monk - You said "Sewers would be good I think, and it is also on the path to Fundy."

Looking at the tech chart, I can't see where Sanitation (Sewers) is on the path to Fundy. There is are things I don't understand about about the tech paths, so I asked. Maybe "it" meant something other than Sewers?

I figured the Egyptian cities were not a good bet. But what about the Celts vs the Zulus as Caravan destinations?

	10-07-2004 02:00									#10
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The question of who to attack is very important. Our initial targets could be specific cities with valuable Wonders, or we could methodically take over our nearest enemies for the value of having more cities.

I do not have an answer to this. The Sioux or Egyptians are nearest us by land, the Zulus have the Wonders, the Celts might be most trusting of approaching Caravels.

I suspect we need specific valuable cities (Wonders, production, etc). My guess is that our first strike will be very important. After that, everyone will be out to kill us. If we attack the Zulus in 1 or 2 cities suddenly, we may get important gains and keep the alliance with the Celts.

This is usually a question for the Foreign Affairs Minister with suggestions from the Minister of War (SMC) concerning ability and eaase of attack, but being I'm acting FAM, I would prefer the Citizens decide. I will post a poll.

	10-07-2004 02:02									#11
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quote: Originally posted by cavebear Monk - You said "Sewers would be good I think, and it is also on the path to Fundy." Looking at the tech chart, I can't see where Sanitation (Sewers) is on the path to Fundy. There is are things I don't understand about about the tech paths, so I asked. Maybe "it" meant something other than Sewers? I figured the Egyptian cities were not a good bet. But what about the Celts vs the Zulus as Caravan destinations?

--Here is what I said..."We already have Medicine and Engineering is not as useless as you say. Sewers would be good I think, and it is also on the path to Fundy."

You quoted me out of context. "It" refers to Eng'r, the subject of the response to the previous post. Sorry if that was not clear enough. (I am experiencing a greater than normal need to shorten my responses.) With Engr' we can research Sanitation; also, with Engr' we are proceeding down the path towards Fundy.

--In my opinion, trying to make deliveries to the Zulu, who have already sunk one of our boats, and with whom we are at War, would not be prudent now. Only later would I recommend sending camels to the Zulu, and then only as an accompaniment to an Invasion Force.

Monk

	10-07-2004 02:06									#12
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Thank you for the clarification about Engineering being the "it". I am sometimes very literal.

	10-07-2004 02:13									#13
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No problem.

I am sometimes too obtuse.

Monk

	10-07-2004 03:04									#14
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I still think we should consider sending Caravans to the near Zulu City. It is much closer than the Celts. There is risk of course. But the payoffs might be much greater. We should consider the desireability of the trade good, too.

We could hang 4 tiles out to sea then dart in and offload the Caravan directly into the Zulu city. It's a risk going to the Zulu on the short trip of 3 turns and a risk being out on the sea for 8 turns to the Celts.

I'd like to see some discussion on this from other Citizens, too. Maybe the MoT should poll on it.

	10-07-2004 05:17									#15
	Re: Re: Military Matters Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk I would not agree with your analysis... Monk

Shot down completely! Thanks BM, I guess that's what happens when you get confused by so many different games.

	10-07-2004 11:50									#16
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I think we need to work on our defense, just in case one of the AI comes a'knocking.

Rather than Offense, we need to make sure that we can protect ourselves first!