10-07-2004 09:43									#1
	Buildings.... Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

In the same vein as the factional abilities, I've been doing some additional thinking with regards to the buildings in Candle'Bre. Like the factional abilities, they have not really had a thorough looking at in light of the changing inner workings of the game, so this is more thinking out loud, but this time, with a focus on the buildings, and by extension, the tech trees.

-=Vel=-

	10-07-2004 09:44									#2
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Notes on Maintenance Costs for Buildings: The Gold component of all building maintenance is the only cost that MUST be paid from turn to turn. If a building type calls for a reduction of a resource that you do not have (ie- Mana), then simply ignore this component of the cost. That is to say that if you cannot "pay" the non-gold portion of a building's upkeep, then simply ignore it, but if you CAN pay, then you must. (alternate idea: We could track the negative values??)

Master List of Provincial Improvements and Effects, Revision 2.0
(question...what IS the normal recovery rate???) just to put a number to it, let's say that loyalty recovers at 5% per turn, baseline

Religious(Magical and Espionage Buildings may not be built in any province containing Religious Buildings)
Shrine (+1 Influence) (-2 Mana)(+2% to Provincial Loyalty Cap)(* 0.001 research cost)(1gpt) (Cost: 110g CP Cost: 24)
Temple (+2 Influence)(-4 Mana)(+5% to Provincial Loyalty Cap)(* 0.002 research cost)(2gpt)(Cost: 150g CP Cost: 34)
Cathedral (+4 Influence)(-4 Mana)(+7% to Provincial Loyalty Cap)(* 0.003 research cost)(4gpt)(Cost: 225g CP Cost: 52)

Research(Financial Buildings may not be built in any province containing Research Buildings)
Scribe's Tower (1 - 0.005 research cost) (-0.25 Influence) (3gpt)(Cost: 160g CP Cost: 32)
Library (1 - 0.010 research cost)( -0.50 Influence)(6gpt)(Cost: 200 CP Cost: 42)
Academy (1 - 0.015 research cost)(-0.75 Influence)(11gpt)(Cost: 275 CP Cost: 60)
University (1 - 0.025 research cost)(-1 Influence)(15gpt)(Cost: 390 CP Cost: 88)

Magical (Religious and Defensive Buildings may not be built in any province containing Magical Buildings)
Sage's Laboratory (+5 Mana)(+10% Construction Points)(-1 Influence)(-1 Hiring Rate)(Cost: 250 CP Cost: 48)
Focusing Sigil (+10 Mana)(+ 20% Construction Points)(-3 Influence)(-1 Hiring Rate)(Cost: 400 CP Cost: 72)

Financial(Research Buildings may not be built in any province containing Financial Buildings)
Market (+10% bonus to provincial income)(Cost: 100g CP Cost: 16)
Bank (+20% bonus to provincial income)(Cost: 150 CP Cost:48)
Trading Company (+ 30% bonus to provincial income)(Cost: 275 CP Cost: 80)

Espionage(Religoius and Defensive Buildings may not be built in any province containing Espionage Buildings)
Tavern (+2 Espionage Action Points) (+1Corruption Attractor) (2gpt)(Cost: 90 CP Cost: 20)
Thieves' Guild (+4 Espionage Action Points)(+3 Corruption Attractor) (no upkeep)(Cost: 250 CP Cost: 44)

Defensive(Espionage and Magical Buildings may not be built in any province containing Defensive Buildings)
Watch Tower (-1 Espionage Action Point)(+0.0004% Growth Rate)(+ 0.005 recovery rate)(Cost: 80 CP Cost: 24)
Fortress (-2 Espionage Action Points)(+0.0008% Growth Rate)(+ 0.010 recovery rate)(Cost: 150 CP Cost: 32)
Keep (-3 Espionage Action Points)(+0.0012% Growth Rate)(+ 0.015 recovery rate)(Cost: 300 CP Cost: 64)
Castle (-4 Espionage Action Points)(+0.0016% Growth Rate)(+ 0.025 recovery rate)(Cost: 500 CP Cost: 128)

General (There are no restrictions on general buildings at this time)
Barracks: No additional effects (Cost: 100g CP Cost: 20)
***Recruitment Center (not normally buildable, event-driven upgrade) (Cost: Special, CP: Special) (+2 to the hiring rate of the province it is built in. The first two units trained on any given turn do not impact provincial loyalty)
Farming Collective: (+0.0008% Growth Rate)(Cost: 100g CP Cost: 24)

Upgraded "versions" of each base building type will enhance existing functionality, but should it also ADD entirely new functionality on its own (or combinatronically)??

Total: 20 Provincial Improvements, in seven (7) categories

List of buildings and their technology and other pre-requisites
Religious
Shrine (Inf 0)
Temple (Inf 4) + At least three shrines must have been built by your faction
Cathedral (Inf 5 + Diplo 2) + At least five temples must have been built by your faction

Research
Scribe's Tower (Inf 1)
Library (Inf 3) + At least three Scribe Towers must have been built by your faction
Academy (Inf 8) (for every library you upgrade to an academy, you must have two other libraries) (ie - you may only upgrade every third library you control)
University (Inf 9 + Diplo 5) (for every academy you upgrade to a university, you must have a second non-upgraded academy (ie - you may only upgrade every other academy you control)

Financial
Market (Inf 2 + Diplo1 + Espi 1)
Bank (Inf 7) + At least five markets must have been built by your faction
Trading Compay (Inf 10 + Espi 3 + Diplo 3) + for every bank you upgrade to a Trading Company, there must be two other banks on Candle'Bre (ie - the maximum number of Trading companies allowed in the game is dependant on the number of banks currently in the Basin. Every two banks can support the creation of one TC--ie, one bank in three may be upgraded).

Defensive
Watch Tower (Inf 2)
Fortress (Inf 4) + The Fortress may not be the only improvement in the province
Keep (Inf 6 + Combat 3) + Fortresses may not be expanded to Keeps if there are open build slots in a province
Castle (Inf 7 + Diplo 5) + Only one Keep in three (3) may be expanded to a Castle

Espionage
Tavern (Espi 0)
Thieves' Guild (Espi 3 + Inf 2)

Magical
Sage's Laboratory (Inf 3) + All Factions but the Order of Mystics must also have no less than five (5) Libraries constructed
Focusing Sigil (Inf 5) + All Factions must have no less than six (6) Laboratories in operation and a stockpile of 100 Mana `before the option to build Focusing Sigils becomes available, + All Factions but the Order of Mystics are subject to the following provision: Only one Sage Laboratory in three may be replaced by a Focusing Sigil.

General
Barracks (combat 0)
Recruitment Center (NA)
Farming Collective (Inf 0)

List of Buildings by technology

Tech Trees (Revision 2.0)
Combat
Level 0 - Infantry, Archers, and Cavalry may be trained. Mercenaries may be hired. Barracks may be built by all factions.

Level 1 - Offensive Tactics: Skirmishers become available.

Level 2 - Cavalry Maneuvers: The Attack and Defense factors of cavalry are increased by 1.

Level 3 - Defensive Tactics: Pikemen become available. Pre-Requisite for Keeps met.

Level 4 - Longbows: The Attack factors of archers is increased by 1.

Level 5 - Siege Tactics: Siege Engines become available.

Level 6 - Articulated Armor: The Attack and Defense factors of all Infantry, Skirmishers, and Pikemen are increased by 1.

Level 7 - Ground Maneuvering: Skirmishers gain full Charge ability.

Level 8 - Crossbows: The Attack factor of all Archers is increased by 1.

Level 9 - Advanced Forge: The Attack and Defense factors of all Infantry, Skirmishers, and Pikemen are increased by 1.

Level 10 - Advanced Reconnaisance: All Infantry (NOT Pikemen or Skirmishers) receive the First Strike special ability.

Infrastructure
Level 0 - Shrines and Farming Collectives available to all factions.

Level 1 - Stone working: Scribe’s Towers become available. Watch Towers become available.

Level 2 - Trade Security: Pre-Requisite for Markets met. Pre-Requisite for Thieves' Guild met.

Level 3 - Literacy: Pre-Requisite for Libraries met. Pre-Requisite for Sage's Laboratory met.

Level 4 - Masonry: Temples become available. Pre-Requisite for Fortresses met.

Level 5 - Exaltation: Pre-Requisite for Cathedrals met. Pre-Requisite for Focusing Sigils met

Level 6 - Engineering: Pre-Requisite for Keeps met.

Level 7 - Vaults: Pre-Requisite for Banks met. Pre-Requisite for Castles met.

Level 8 - Advanced Education: Pre-Requisite for Academies met.

Level 9 - Specialized Education: Pre-Requisite for Universities met.

Level 10 - Fiscal Securities: Pre-Requisite for Trading Companies met.

Espionage
Level 0 - Hiring Local spies may be done by all factions. All factions may Incite Rebellions. Taverns become available.

Level 1 - Basic Thievery: Steal Gold (SG hereafter) ability is gained with a 60 percent chance of success. Snoop Options become available (formerly "Gather Intelligence") (Int hereafter) ability is gained with XX percent chance of success. Option to Train Spy becomes available. Pre-Requisite for Markets met.

Level 2 - Robbery: SG success base becomes 70 percent.

Level 3 - Infiltration: Steal/Corrupt (SR) Research ability is gained with a 50 percent chance of success (for Steal). Ability to hire a Scout/Guide becomes available. Acquire Double Agent becomes available here. Pre-Requisite for Trading Companies met. Pre-Requisite for Thieves' Guilds met.

Level 4 - Stealth: SG success base becomes 75 percent. SR base becomes 60 percent.

Level 5 - Propaganda: Bribe ability (BR) is gained with a 50 percent chance of success. Demolitions Expert becomes available here.

Level 6 - Forgeries: SG base becomes 80 percent. SR base becomes 65 percent. BR base becomes 60 percent.

Level 7 - Assassination: Assassinate (A) ability is gained at a base 40 percent chance of success.

Level 8 - Accent Training: SG base becomes 85 percent. SR base becomes 75 percent. BR base becomes 70 percent. A base becomes 50 percent.

Level 9 - Camouflage: SG base becomes 90 percent. SR base becomes 80 percent. BR base becomes 75 percent. A base becomes 55 percent. Counterspy sweep becomes available here.

Level 10 - Syndicate: SG base becomes 95 percent. SR base becomes 85 percent. BR base becomes 80 percent. A base becomes 60 percent. Counterspy Cell Network becomes available here (and it still needs a better, more medieval-sounding name). Subversion becomes available here.

Diplomacy
Level 0 - Declaration of War, Truce, and Brute flattery options are available to all factions. Form/Forge submissive state available to all factions.

Level 1 - Basic Diplomacy: Forge Peace option becomes available. Pre-Requisite for Markets met.

Level 2 - Hold/Attend Court: Place Court Herald option becomes available. Pre-Requisite for Cathedrals met.

Level 3 - Basic Negotiation: Letter of Commendation, and Letter of Negotiation options become available (specific options available at this point are: XXXXX List options). Pre-Requisite for Trading Companies met.

Level 4 - Intermediate Diplomacy: Gift of State option available here (brute flattery vanishes as an option)

Level 5 - Diplomatic Maneuvering: Create Diplomatic Incident available here. Pre-Requisite for Castles met.

Level 6 - Intermediate Negotiation: Forge Alliance available here (but none of it's sub-options)

Level 7 - Coordination: Create Diplomatic Incident "In Collusion with…." Option becomes available. Coordinate battle plans option becomes available to allies.

Level 8 - Vassalization: Create Vassal State becomes available

Level 9 - Advanced Negotiation: Reduce Tariffs and Guilder's Alliance options become available to allies.

Level 10 - Advanced Diplomacy: Favored Trading partner and Pool Research options become available to allies.

Baseline Tech Costs
Level 1 - 240
Level 2 - 480
Level 3 - 780
Level 4 - 1230
Level 5 - 1830
Level 6 - 2580
Level 7 - 3600
Level 8 - 5100
Level 9 - 6900
Level 10 - 9000

Modifications to Basic Tech Costs
Discounted Tech Tree Prices
* The First Faction to discover any given tech must pay the full price in tech points (note that I JUST thought of: research points for techs in the same tree should carry over. Players HATE when they lose research points, and we shouldn't make them have to babysit the budget....that's avoidable MicroManagement if we just do an auto-carryover).

* For every faction that currently knows a given technolgy, the factions who do not know that technology recieve a discounted rate equal to ((5 +#of Factions who know the tech)-5) * (10)% of the baseline rate.

* Building Scribe's Towers, Libraries, Academies, and Universities will decrease your technology costs.

Tech Premiums
* Increasing Cost due to size - There is no tech premium to pay if you have eight provinces or fewer. Beyond eight (8) provinces, however, every province you acquire will add (totalprovs - 5)% to your basic tech cost.

* Building Shrines, Temples, and Cathedrals will marginally increase your technology costs.

* There are some Fate Events that will increase the basic cost of tech (see specific fate events for details).

Details on how research is conducted
On the research screen, there should be statistics displaying the following information:

* What techs I've got at present (maybe a tabbed section of the screen to review these)
* What techs I'm researching right now and an indication of how close or far away I am, including total tech cost - research points accumulated last turn, and perhaps even some reporting features (points last turn, avg. points over the last 12 turns (year))
* The price of those techs, and some breakdown of that price (baseline, plus modifiers: Buildings, Size Premium, Tech proliferation discount, event effects)
* Some means of allocating gold for research on the current turn, both in general, and to the various tech trees. Remember that there is no set corellation between gold spent and research points generated....that is random, based on X number of "die rolls" which generate research points based on the number of rolls purchased during that turn.
* The "rolls" are not made until you end the current turn, so you can purchase some number of them, leave the screen, change your mind, come back and reallocate, and the research screen should allow for these gyrations.
* There should also be a means (text stops abruptly cos I was writing this at work...LOL)

	12-07-2004 01:43									#3
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So....been a couple days since I first posted these, and I see that some folks have been looking, but nobody's made any comments. Here are the kinds of things I'm looking for from those of you following the project:

Are the effects of the buildings good as-is, too restrictive, not enough, needs a bit more, or something else entirely?

Are the "maintenance costs" too restrictive, in your mind, or about right?

Other effects needed, or does that get it done? (ie - initially, research builds generated a set # of research points per turn in each tree, but given our changing systems, I thought that a % decrease in research costs would be more interesting, especially since the bonus configured in that way is more helpful to small empires).

Keep in mind of course, that this is all simply for the game as she will exist out the gate, and I envision more buildings, more choices and more variables in-game as we move from there to bringing the game live.

Note to Dale: If you've already got the buildings and their effects coded in, then by all means, let us keep them as they are (in the interest of getting the game out!), but if that's something that's not yet been nailed down, then as I put the finishing touches on the fate events, I'll tweak what I've got here till it's just right and we'll rock and roll...

-=Vel=-

	12-07-2004 06:08									#4
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Is the non-gold upkeep and effects of improvements national or provincial? For example, do I lose mana from my central pool from a cathedral, or does it only affect mana created in the province?

	12-07-2004 07:34									#5
	Put an end to popups!

Hey man, and a good question. The non-gold upkeep costs were meant to be incurred at the national level, with the goal being that pursuit of one strategy (ie - influence accural) would degrade-but-not-eliminate your ability to acquire it's diametric opposite (mana). Not that it'd be impossible to do both, but that by choosing to pursue a hybrid approach would net you fewer resources, sum-total, than a player who was running with purely one or the other (which speaks to the inherent efficiency of specialization).

-=Vel=-

	12-07-2004 07:38									#6
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

As an aside, I have Moomin to thank for this new approach to the buildings. In a thread on governance points we were kicking around over a year ago, he used the phrase "putting your mouth where your money is" and that really struck a chord with me. I liked that, and wanted very much to use it, and I think this propsed system does just that.

Whatever path you start yourself down on....doesn't necessarily lock you in to a certain set of choices, but it does tend to inform choices you make down the line....depending on what strategy you want to emphasize, those early provincial builds will be very telling, and those early game decisions will really shape the development of your provinces. Not to say that you can't adopt a different strategy down the line (deconstructing a few buildings to open up some slots and begin to change your strategy), but doing so will cost you time and turn advantage (as it should be).
You like?

-=Vel=-

	12-07-2004 09:55									#7
	Suffering from ads?

The penalties seem a little harsh, especially seeing as research and defense are absolutely vital components of the game.

(btw, I think it'd be cool if "espionage points" and influence were just combined into influence. Have spy missions and stuff be some of the intercessions, basically.)

	12-07-2004 16:49									#8
	Remove this text

Hmmm....could the harshness of the penalties be mitigated some by adding or strengthening the benefits of the buildings, or simply by ratcheting down the penalties slightly?

As it stands, the only building type that hurts research rates are the religious ones, with ten shrines under your control bumping your research costs up by 1%. I thought that might actually be a bit low (offset by a single library), so it's interesting to hear the opposite viewpoint! Tell me more!

-=Vel=-

	12-07-2004 18:47									#9
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Is building efficiency going to be tied into the available population pool?

If you have a province with a low population, then it stands to reason that if you have a lot of buildings in that province, those buildings would not operate at maximum efficiency.

An idea (somewhat) ripped from the Sierra CityBuilder games...

I had a thought that a player could also have a heavily populated province, but he needs to provide housing for that population before he could take advantage of maximum efficiency of the buildings that are in that province.

Look at it this way - the individual province map is set up so that buildings are created in the province seat (or the main town of the province). If you want people to emigrate to, and work in that town from the outlying districts, you have to create not only the jobs but also the housing for them.

Last edited by hexagonian on 13-07-2004 at 00:49

	12-07-2004 21:22									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx As it stands, the only building type that hurts research rates are the religious ones, with ten shrines under your control bumping your research costs up by 1%. I thought that might actually be a bit low (offset by a single library), so it's interesting to hear the opposite viewpoint! Tell me more! -=Vel=-

I must have read something wrong... how are research points generated?

	13-07-2004 03:12									#11
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Hiyas Hex! You know, I had not thought of that, but that'd be an *excellent* component to add in!

We could put minimum pop floors on building types. If the sum-total of your provincial population was less than the sum-total pop floor of the buildings you built, then they'd operate at less-than-optimal efficiency. If less, we could either let the computer make the assignments (first in, first dibs, which would be easiest), or allow some sort of player controlled assignment.

The question in my mind would then be, would there be a sufficient enough impact to the game to make it a good addition, or are we just adding in another layer of complexity?

As to how research points are generated:

Research is paid for turn-to-turn. You purchase "research rolls" (essentially a computer generated die roll) with gold 3g = one roll, which will generate a random number of research points in a player-selected branch of the research tree. Each "roll" you pay for generates 1-6 research points in that branch, with the total points needed to advance to the next level in the tech tree controlled by the baseline tech cost chart, modified by the research bonuses or penalties according to size, first discovery, and provincial builds.

-=Vel=-

	16-07-2004 02:41									#12
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Nice writeup

Would you mind clarifying what you mean by "become available to allies"? Do you mean the player now has the choice of executing these options for anyone in his alliances? Or that these options now become available to his allies to execute, but not executable by the player?

	16-07-2004 02:50									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

yep...that needs a bit of clarification. The player who did the research can now make those offers to alliance members.

-=Vel=-