10-07-2004 10:02									#1
	AU 601: Strollen (Romans) Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Monarch level, first Civ PBEM.

I normally play at Demi or Emperor level. So I may to unlearn some skills and off course PBEM will be different.

Settled on the starting position, which looks very good. I toyed with researching Pottery or wheel at max, but decided that writing at 50 was good enough. Unfortunately, too many civs have alphabet so I am prepared to get beaten to writing.

My 1st warrior explored to the south west, found silks and more importantly poped yup u guessed a settler. (Of the last 100+ starts I've had including a couple civs with expansionist traits, I don't think I've more than one settler.)

Moved settler 1. next turn my warrior found a wheat field, I thought about moving settler to settle near the wheat, but decide that getting my 2nd city established early was really important.

I continue explorering found the ivory to the north and a 2nd ivory to the west on river with a wheat in its a radius.

Meanwhile, my 2nd city produced a warrior (sent exploring) and a worker which started a road back to rome. My 3rd city was founded by the Ivory in the north, with a fish and 2 shielded grasslands.

Finally meet carthage around 3250 BC. It looks like they have researched bronze work, but probably haven't meet any other civs. Warrior code is 2nd tier tech, so I was happy to trade it to +55GP to Carthage for Masonry. Unfortunately, this means that my alphabet isn't going to be very valuable....

By 3000, I found Carthage borders. Well now I know which direction to expand. Set both worker to building a road from rome to the west. Hopefully I can meet somebody else and learn pottery and build a granary in Rome.

Last edited by Strollen on 03-08-2004 at 07:06

	10-07-2004 14:58									#2
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In 2800 BC, the glorious Roman empire meet the Persian. They had bronze, ceremonial burial, and pottery, but not Alpha. Carthage was missing burial. It cost 84 of my 99 Gold and 1 GPT to Carthage. But we are now finally got up in tech, and 24 turns from writing.

Unfortunately, pottery came a couple turns to late. Rome, end up building a carragh, and than switched to a granary. An 8 turn settler pump isn't super speeding, but I figured by the time I built a granary in a city with wheat+flood plain (i.e. +5 food) the expansion phase would be over. The carragh did reveal, that somewhat to my surprise there is a land bridge leading to the North East, if it is a dead end or another civ, only exploration will tell, but meeting 3 or possibly 4 other civs early on especially if they don't all have contact will be great.

My opponent Smelly Mummy commented on my score lead.

	13-07-2004 14:33									#3
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Smellymummy and I have got a lot of turns in we are now up to ~1600BC

We meet the evil Greeks around 2100 BC, at that point I had established contact with the Celt, Carthage, and Persians. The Carthage and Persians were neighbors. The celts were fairly isolated.

I was researching writing at 10% science but still had 20 turns. Smelly offered me Mysticism, and writing.

I was not sure how PBEM diplomacy worked, but after an explaination from Smelly, I realized there were no trades likely. Since I was fairly sure that Smelly had not met Carthage or Persia, I decide to attack his wounded warrior to prevent him trading writing to those two countries. The both had between 150 and 200 gold so worth trading writing for.

I killed his warrior, and 10 turns latter one his warrior killed mine, but the gambit paid off. I managed to research writing at 10% pace and trade it to the Persians for money, and writing + iron working to the Germans for horseback riding.

Going into 1700 BC, I had 400 gold, established embassy, at Germany, Carthage, Persia and had all of the techs. I put max research toward Math. Unfortunately, I am guessing that greece having made a max effort for writing will probably beat me to philosphy....

My 4th city was built by a cattle and another settler was on his way to settle near the dye, giving me a 3rd luxury. It is possible but unlikely that I can also grab incense. There are enough horses, and iron around that I should be able to grab at least one of each.

My biggest mistake so far was mining the cattle near Roman instead of irrigating it.

My curraugh having found Germany is on its way to discover, the Babalonions, and Egyptians.

	24-07-2004 07:12									#4
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The Holy Roman Empire as of 650 BC

Attachment: rome650bc.jpg
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	24-07-2004 07:46									#5
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A lot as happen since my last post. As you can see the Roman Empire is good size 12 cities, with 2 more settlers active and at least one more being produced soon, with 3 or 4 others possible being made.

My 3rd luxury and iron are 3-4 turns from being hooked and Insense should be avaliable baring a culture flip of Viroconumium.

Tech wise I am also doing well, since I am 15 or so turns from Feudalism and nobody else has Construction, and only Germany has currency. I trade Currency to Germany for map making and 112 Gold, plus an ROP. I am not sure but I am guessing that the AI will be less likely to declare war against somebody they have an ROP, even if they don't have units inside the country.



I am not used to to playing at Monarch level so I have been pleasantly surprised to find that I have an excellent chance of getting one of the top Ancient Wonders, Pyramids, or Great Library. I think I can also grab SOZ, by cutting of the Carthage Ivory at the appropriate time. However, I rate my chances of getting SOZ as no greater than 1/3. If not, I'll have a good start on a Middle Age wonder.

I also finding that tech research is really slow. I thought for sure one of my AI opponents would have Monarchy by now, which I will acquire via trade or possibly the GL. Alas that doesn't appear to be the case..

More about my Greek opponent and future strategy soon.

	02-08-2004 10:00									#6
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Why aren't you using the wheat on the flood plains?

	02-08-2004 12:47									#7
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Good question. Given the prohibition against attacking enemy cities I wanted to grap all the land I could and than back fill it.

I put a city on the flood plain around 300 BC.

	02-08-2004 14:28									#8
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I can understand the temptation to get settlers out as far as possible early to claim land, but the problem with that kind of REX is that it isn't all that sustainable over time. The most central key to a good REX is to have lots of settler and worker production capacity in the core. That means building cities near the capital with granaries early and, especially, building cities with granaries anywhere there's a good food bonus tile.

When I see a flood plains tile with wheat, my instincts positively scream, "Worker pump!" If I can get that city cranking out two-turn and/or three-turn workers (depending on its production capacity), that frees up my higher-production cities to focus more on settlers and less on workers.

	09-08-2004 13:01									#9
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I did found Tarentum in 60 AD and had it start producing workers
But you point is well taken

	09-08-2004 13:07									#10
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Rome in 170 AD.
Note that Viroconium is actually a Roman city, capture by the evil Germans. Unfortunately a few turns later we were forced to make peace with them, but Viroconium will soon be mind when the peace ends and with it my 4th luxury.

This is the last screen shot in this thread because Gunpowder is discovered soon.

Attachment: rome170ad.jpg
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	10-08-2004 08:45									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Strollen A I am not used to to playing at Monarch level so I have been pleasantly surprised to find that I have an excellent chance of getting one of the top Ancient Wonders, Pyramids, or Great Library. I think I can also grab SOZ, by cutting of the Carthage Ivory at the appropriate time. However, I rate my chances of getting SOZ as no greater than 1/3. If not, I'll have a good start on a Middle Age wonder.

(It has taken me a long time to update my DAR.. It is now 300 AD).

So back to my July 24 post, a couple of turns later Monarchy was discovered.

Having already completed construction and currency, and being 10 or so turns from Feudalism. (Construction was monopoly and only the Germans and Greeks had currency) I was in an interesting postion.

Option 1. I could stay the course and complete the Great Library iin 9 turns , and the next turn get Feudalism, and than switch Govt. With the GL giving me Monarchy. Or possibly Republic if my opponent Smellymully had traded it around.

Option 2 Switch immediately to Monarchy and let the wonders fall where they may.

I chose 2, traded for monarchy, and than watched as smelly mummy made sure that any Civ that didn't have all the tech got out of the AA. I got 7 turns of Anarchy for my trouble.
Surprisingly I would have got the GL anyhow, except in attempting to micromanage the specialist I let my wonder city Antium fall in disorder the turn I came out of anarchy. I was one turn away from building the GL when wonder cascade happened in 310BC with Carthage building the GL. My production kept get switched and I finally built SOZ more by default at 250BC.

(Does anybody else think at 300 Shields and with the nerfed Ancient Cav, SOZ is overpriced?)

In hindsight I think it was a mistake but getting out of Despotism 9 turns was certainly nice.

Other Civs had got Monothesim and Feudalism, so I made max effort for engineering and surprisingly got it first. I traded for Mono and Feudalism.

Militarily
Greece and I had fought an early short war but with almost no units in each other terrority. Nothing really happened except bribing the AI. We made peace.

After I became a Monarchy, I sent small force of an archer a 3 legionairs to the Greek chokepoint city of Pharsalos. Since he was Republic and I Monarch, I was pleasantly surprised, when he attacked me giving me War happiness. I was less thrilled about Smelly bribing Persia into joining the attack.

Persia almost immediately sent a half-dozen horseman into Carthage. While also attempting to retreat the 3 settler back into his own terroritory. I allied Carthage against both the Greeks and the Persians. I also bought Education from them, and traded it to the Egyptians for Chivalry.

My legions, MEs, and a couple of Ancient Cav reversed direction, and killed the settlers. Giving me 5 workers (one was recaptured and destroyed.) Between Carthage and I we killed all the Persian horseman at the cost of a legion.

Unfortunately, my sucess in the North wasn't as good. Around 200 AD, the Greeks bribed the Celts (who were actually helping against the Germans) to switch cities. Lacking sufficient forces to take back the incense city from the Germans while fighting the Celt, I made peace with the Germans, and turn my attention to the Celts. One good thing about the war, the Celt settler in my terroritory was quickly dispatched and placed to work building roads for the glory of Rome.

During the Golden age, I concentrated mostly on building my infrastructure. Pompeii built the FP, and most other cities built a library, temple and/or marketplace. Meanwhile Neapolis continued working on a Wonder, nominally Leonardos.

Rome also built a harbor, but alas nobody can trade with us other than Carthage. I also build 2 galley to use for my raids against Greece. At some point I'd like to trade my second iron to Persia on the hopes they can use it to trigger a GA against Greece.

Militarily, I built just enough units to keep my support cost around 0-2 GPTs.

	10-08-2004 08:55									#12
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Questions for those reading the thread.

A large reason for me using Monarchy was to be able to be remain at war with Greece without worrying about WW. I also want to give Greece some weariness, especially since they started the war.

Since fighting is difficult with Persia and Carthage in the way, my plan was to conduct a couple of raids on Greek costal cities. If I can capture 2, I should trigger war weariness. I have 2 Galleys, an AC, 2 legionaire and a MI, for the purpose.

However, I have heard conflicting comments about war weariness. Some people say their isn't WW from Human vs Human wars other say there is. Does anybody know for sure?

Question #2

I am about 12 turns from building a wonder. Most GA have come and gone, (Persia being the notable exception) so I suspect I will be first or 2nd in getting a Middle age wonder.

Choices are Sun Tzu, Leonardos, Sistine Chapel.

If somebody researches Music Theory first, my 1st choice would be JS Bach.

What are peoples thoughts on this?

	10-09-2004 19:40									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Strollen Some people say their isn't WW from Human vs Human wars other say there is. Does anybody know for sure?

Yes, WW works properly for humans in MP.

quote: Choices are Sun Tzu, Leonardos, Sistine Chapel.

Sun Tzu is not as useful for militaristic civs like Rome. And if you don't plan on building Cathedrals everywhere, I would foget about the Sistine too. That leaves Leo's.

Any updates to your game in the past month, by the way?