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Antrine
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Interesting analsys, oh I still do not know how to extract the rules set just yet, unless I import it into blank and zip it?
Anyway, now that you bring up unit movement, I realize that my modded units that the AI's use to fill up their armies often have movement of 3 or 4, or all-terrain 1, however sometimes 1 movement gladiators are loaded up.
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Antrine
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Ya, we have and Leaders are worthless so far concerns having the AI make armies.
Well, I do not believe the leader science 'feature' is functional. 
Last edited by Antrine on 17-07-2004 at 14:00
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player1
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Belgrade, YU
Sep 2001
time: 06:36
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Maybe it depends which unit was loaded first.
If fist loaded unit had movment of 1, all other units with have movement of 2 I guess.
So you can get army with 1warrior and 2 Horsemen.
But, as showed in other zip, if fist loaded unit already has movment of 2, AI will wait for units with movement of 3 to load in same army. That why there are no armies in second save.
P.S.
How to send the rules?
Zip them, and then send them as attachment (like I did in my last attachment). I think that rar would work too.
Last edited by player1 on 17-07-2004 at 14:07
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player1
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Belgrade, YU
Sep 2001
time: 06:36
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This could also explain why in one my old debug game, Incas, the most advanced civ, had no active armies.
It always added one Modern Armor into the armies, and since army gets movment of 4, it waits indefinelty for nonexistant unit with movment of 4.
I guess this buggy things is some legacy code from original/PtW coding of armies.
Probably Soren (Firaxis AI guy) intented that AI doesn't load
slow moving units in army with mobile force.
I guess that code line goes like this:
Don't load a unit with lower movement then army into the army.
Last edited by player1 on 17-07-2004 at 14:09
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Gray_Lensman
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Player1
I see the Leader stats with a movement of 3, but the Army has a movement of 1, (I presume that is it's movement when empty). Once units get placed in the Army doesn't it take on the speed of the slowest unit?
All Military academy does is increase the Army capacity to 4 and allow you to build them without Leaders, if I'm not mistaken.
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Antrine
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Well, if you are right player 1 and I see no reason why you are not, then my particular modding of new units simply made me 'lucky' for I like long-range units on larger maps. So I have from the get-go many such units about.
http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php...Build_FORTY.rar
OH, here it is in all it's glory! Let me know what you think, since it represents some eight months of work!
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Gray_Lensman
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Ahh...
Army movement is another of those cases where the editor is not the only governing rule(s). Some built in inaccessible hardcoding is also being applied.
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Antrine
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Well, I have 'saved games' that sport dozens of loaded AI armies, and now that you mention all this, there is this particular odity that now strikes me as significate. Namely this, that all these armies are of 'mixed' units. I swear, I thought it was odd, but not figuring why the AI's never seemed to load the same two or three units in the same army!!
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Gray_Lensman
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I'm wondering if there is maybe some way to fool the AI concerning Armies by defining several different Armies in the editor, distinguished by Movement allowance.
For example,
Let's say the first empty army created is your standard vanilla empty army with a movement allowance of 1
Now, let's say we define Army2, Army3, and Army4, distinguished only by the movement allowance. Now the AI comes along and loads a unit into the vanilla army, making it, say an Army2.
Now, this army has a movement factor of 2 of course, but since we know it took a 1 movement factor unit, to create it, we set up a free upgrade path for it to switch back to an Army1, which we defined as having a movement allowance of 1.
I'm not sure if this wouldn't chain react, but it might be worth a shot.
Edit:
The downside is that an Army4 (movement of 4) would never exist, but that's a small price to pay to get the AI to load and use Armies.
Last edited by Gray_Lensman on 17-07-2004 at 14:53
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Antrine
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So far, I cannot find a single instance where ANY two units are loaded into the same AI army! Additionally of those loaded, they always, have a different 'movement' factor.
So more adjustments. Spearman are now with movement of two, this to hamper the AI even thinking about loading them first. Second, got to bring all the swordsman to table much earlier. And third, in the pre-start, I am stacking an all-terrain movement 1 offensive unit, so they get first billing as candidate for loading into the AI armies. Most the horse units are already at movement 3, and I have one offensive 4 movement unit (a spider). Probably will look into adding another mid-game.
This sucks! But I am too far into this Mod now, so it does not matter for me and game play is just terrific. However, if you are anywhere near vanilla, it is a long convoluted journey to army land !
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Gray_Lensman
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Antrine,
Since you are trying this Army mod thing, do or die, HeHe, did you see my comment above? I've been brainstorming it all day, even at work, and I'm thinking it just might work, but I'm not that tight with the editor just yet.
I'm just thinking if somehow the upgrade rules could be used to force the movement allowance down 1, then it would load the same movement allowance unit(s) into the Army as the first unit that was loaded in.
We seem to have ascertained that the AI does not want to load a slower unit than the existing Army's movement allowance. This behavior suggest that if a 1 MA unit, is first loaded in, the Army then has 2 MA, which it then waits for a 2 MA unit, and once it has a 2 MA unit in it, the Army then has 3 MA, which it then waits for a 3 MA unit, and so on. This is in fact what it seems you are observing, which at least makes understandable sense with the current AI actions.
This behavior leads me to believe that the first unit of course will be the determining MA unit of the Army, and if we can somehow force it back 1 MA, it will continue to fill with that particular MA.
The question is how to go about using the upgrade rules to effect this. If it doesn't want to upgrade, the question becomes why. Would it upgrade if the upgrade was slightly more expensive, even though the MA was reduced? These are questions that somebody with more experience with the editor might be able to answer.
Anyhow, these are, hopefully, some possible, work around ideas, that I think might help.
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Antrine
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Hey, great ideas. My general feeling is any action we take that then in turn requires something of the AI such as; 'utilizing an upgrade option' is difficult at best. I have noted this all along the way, for so far 'we' (because several of here have worked at this, swapping ideas as we here now) have over came several hurdles to have the game 'working' as well as it does.
Additionally the armies are funny creatures, having unique characterics, once created, they cannot be 'altered', just disbanded or pushed to death so far as I know. Have you tried upgrading one? I see the option, however have not tried it, or heard of anyone else mention it. That of course is not conclusive.
Now keeping to our purpose, namely AI armies quickly filled and ready for use or war (that's the trigger) would maybe not be something upgrade would help. For it is another action with requirement, though that could be streamlined as you say by making cheap and easy.
Cheap and easy is the issue, perhaps 'upgrade' could clean up the stragglers deeper in the game? (depending how it works, if at all).
Now thinking about it, how about a zero movement offensive unit? Made special to fill armies only at point of origin via a common improvement such as the granary or a cloned improvement that is near free and buildable at the capitol. This puppy could spit them every turn, and maybe fill every army the palace produces.
What do you think?
Well one minor detail, if miscalculated the capitol would be most hard to take. 
A zero movement offensive unit would back down the 1, 2, 3, 4 one to 0, 1, 2, and 3 when they expand.
Last edited by Antrine on 18-07-2004 at 10:27
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Gray_Lensman
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I see the same problem with a 0 MA unit. Let's say you do create a 0 MA offensive unit. The AI might not load it into a vanilla Army with a MA of 1, however if you had some Armies with MA of 0 to start with, the AI may load a 0 MA offensive unit into it, but then the army becomes a 1 MA Army, and probably will not accept another 0 MA unit. That's why I am trying to think of a way to force the Army MA back down as a solution, if at all possible.
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Antrine
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Yes, but in what length of turn sequence? If all the units are there straight away with the armies, then the whole thing occurs in one turn. Such as what I do now. At start-up I give each AI over 60 units maybe now as many as 70. All are present at turn one to build 5 or more armies. If not turn one certainly by turn 10 to 15. And since the trigger for use is war, then I know my neighbors are loaded and dangerous and I treat them careful respect straight away. For if I attack then I will see these 5 to 8 armies coming my way. This works now.
I have tweaked things a little since last night will test again soon. Will you test the army upgrade? I will for I have five different types of armies and setting up a upgrade path is a natural thing to do. I hope it works!!
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Gray_Lensman
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Hmmm. Doing it the way you are doing it, have you at any point seen the AI with an Army of more than one unit that contains the same MA?
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Antrine
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No, and all the armies are filled now every time by all AI's. However, so far I never have seen any two units of any kind loaded therein.
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Gray_Lensman
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So it definitely points to us somehow getting the Army's MA reduced by 1 after whatever unit is loaded, and hopefully the Army MA is adjusted just at that point so that if we actually do contrive to (upgrade) it back 1 movement point, it won't immediately try to push it up 1 movement point again.
Right now, I am trying my Hidden Nationality subs abilities, but waiting for the AI to do something in the debug mode is frustrating. Otherwise, I would attempt this upgrade suggestion myself.
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Antrine
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Well_Lensman, since I reporting so soon, quess what? There is no way to set a 0 movement unit!?! Next, there is immobile, however this is an override and 1 movement at least is still there. Also, I already had on army set to upgrade, however had not play-tested it yet. So I set another, early on.
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Gray_Lensman
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Well, let's hope the upgrade idea pays off. Although it won't surprise me if there is some sort of similar code roadblock.
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player1
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Belgrade, YU
Sep 2001
time: 06:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray_Lensman
We seem to have ascertained that the AI does not want to load a slower unit than the existing Army's movement allowance. This behavior suggest that if a 1 MA unit, is first loaded in, the Army then has 2 MA, which it then waits for a 2 MA unit, and once it has a 2 MA unit in it, the Army then has 3 MA, which it then waits for a 3 MA unit, and so on. This is in fact what it seems you are observing, which at least makes understandable sense with the current AI actions.
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Actually after it loads 1MA unit is can load as many as possibile 2MA units, since because of 1MA unit army will still have 2MA regardless of faster 2MA units in it.
(the slowest unit in amy +1 is the army MA)
So you can have 1archer (1MA), 2 Horsemen (2MA) army.
Since such army still has MA of 2 (slowest movment +1).
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17-07-2004 13:32
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