10-07-2004 15:48									#1
	Working method to give AI free armies while giving the player none, on random map Get a bigger avatar today!

EDIT: Thanks to player1, this is version 2. The major downside is mostly fixed and the demo scenario has been updated to reflect it.

As we all know, in Conquests, the AI almost never gets any armies.

It is possible to give the AI free armies while giving none to the humans, and still playing on a random map.

What you do is create a tech, then set it to be unresearchable and untradeable.

Now, you need to get this tech to the AI but not the players. Assign it to all civs, under the Civilizations tag. Assign all Civs this new tech, as well as their default ones. Now everyone will get the new tech.

Next, using the custom player data, assign player 1 as the human. Then, uncheck civilization defaults under player one. Now, the human won't get the new AI only tech. I would assign two of the starting techs to player one. Here the only downside to the mod comes into play. The human will not get his starting techs by default. You will have to assign him some. If you know you are going to play a certain civ you can go into the editor and giv it the right techs before you play, otherwise you can just assign a couple of the starting techs. It's not quite as good as automatically getting techs based on your traits but I think the trade off is worth it. (thanks to player1 for showing me a better way to make the tech AI only)

Then, create a small wonder. Set the pre req for this small wonder to the tech you created and gave to the AI players. Set the shield cost super low, and make it generate armies every X turns.

The AI will build this small wonder right away, taking about three to five turns if you minimze the shield cost. Once it does, it will get the armies, I've set up a test scenario. This could severely increase the challenge of a game.

All random options are still available, you can play a random map of any size and type against whatever number of civs you want, there is really only one disadvantage that I can think of.

I realize those starting techs represent a lot of the strategy of the early game, but on the other hand, facing AI armies will increase the challenge for the rest of the game. But, the player will still get starting techs, they just might not be the exact ones his civ would normally get.

I have attached a very simple and primitive scenario showing that it does indeed work. Pretty much it's only purpose is to easily show you that the AI does get the armies and so you can see what I did to make it do this.

It's on debug mode, so you can simply fortify and watch as the AI builds the wonders and rakes in the armies (the wonders build fast and the armies come every 3 turns to reduce your waiting time in this demo). Feel free to set the opposing civs to random. That's pretty much it about the scenario.

I switched the Espionge Agency to the army producing building and switched Integrated Defense to the AI only tech, just because it was easier than making new techs and wonders.

If someone has posted this exact way to get the AI using armies before, then I apologize, but I did some searches and didn't find anything. Hope this is helpful.

Attachment: army test.zip
This has been downloaded 4 time(s).

Last edited by Action on 11-07-2004 at 00:44

	10-07-2004 20:11									#2
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Good idea.
Personnaly, I avoid making army generating wodners, since often AI players instead of filling armies with units, just add one unit and garrison them in the city.

But this method is promising, since it gives armies to AIs only, making it less exploitable by human player.

	10-07-2004 20:18									#3
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Idea for tech solution could be to add that tech to civs in Civilizations screen, not players tab, and then only modify player1 as non-default at players tab.

Of course, only drawback is that human player won't have techs depending from civ traits.

	10-07-2004 23:22									#4
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quote: Originally posted by player1 Idea for tech solution could be to add that tech to civs in Civilizations screen, not players tab, and then only modify player1 as non-default at players tab. Of course, only drawback is that human player won't have techs depending from civ traits.

Hmm that is a good idea, thanks.

	10-07-2004 23:26									#5
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On the General Tab, At start unit #2 for AI's. Give each AI ten or fifteen Armies. Follow the suggestions in these threads to make sure the AI stuffs and uses these Armies:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=109636
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=117585
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=117412

	11-07-2004 00:49									#6
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as i've posted before, its a lot easier.

Set Army cost to 0, and let every wonder (small and big + palace) be able to build armies... volia .... the AI suddenly builds armies and uses them in offensive battles quite often!

	11-07-2004 01:12									#7
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I agree, excepting I think he wants to curb the human from taking to much advantage of said arrangements.

	11-07-2004 02:48									#8
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the limit is still 1 army per 4 cities... thats a nice limit... perhaps if you build a lot of cities, just increase it to 6 or 8 cities.

	11-07-2004 03:05									#9
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By the way, if somebody doesn't know, army generating wonders (free army every X turns) break maximum number of armies cap.
For example if you have just one city and such wonder, you'll still get new armies.

	11-07-2004 04:26									#10
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very true... thats why you can't let that happen.

Best method IMO is still "my way". Set cost to 0 and allow every small/big wonder + palace to build it.

	11-07-2004 04:49									#11
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Doesn't that leave human player with so many armies that game becomes way to easy?

	16-07-2004 10:28									#12
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All this argument aside about whether or not to get the AI some armies to use... Of what use is it, if the AI doesn't actively load up the armies to utilize them properly. Has this aspect been thoroughly tested/debugged yet?

	16-07-2004 10:45									#13
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Well, sometimes AI does fully load up armies.
In those cases AI utilizes them well.

Unfortunately, more often, AI just loads one unit in army and waits in the city passively.

What exactly triggers "activating" armies is still unknown.

	16-07-2004 23:08									#14
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I haven't seen much mention of it in the AU 503 DARs (and haven't finished mine yet), but I saw a LOT of AI Army usage there.

	16-07-2004 23:28									#15
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Probably those few "activated" armies (AI does know to use them for good).

But, I bet that when taking AI cities with Military Academy, you'll encounter a lot of 1unit filled amries that do nothing.

	16-07-2004 23:43									#16
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this is my observation regarding usage of AI armies:

At first, when i gave every civ free armies every X turn, but kept the Cost at 400, the AI tended to keep them in cities. But after i reduced the cost to 0, and made them freely available (buildable by every wonder/sm. wonder/palace), the AI started to use them offensive, even if it was their only army.

My theory is that the AI tries to protect their "high value" unit. If it isn't worth anything (no shield cost) however, the AI doesn't care about it and uses it just like any other unit.

Perhaps someone could varify this with independent tests?

	17-07-2004 00:39									#17
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Yes, in the AU Mod the cost of an Army is 1g.

	17-07-2004 04:05									#18
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Here is how it works !

1. Cheap/free armies for the AI best (lots of them is nice)
2. A plentiful amount of 'early offensive uniis' with good movement range. The vanilla game is lacking here. Available by same conditions cheap/free.
3. A plentiful amount of fast move defensive units, again the vanilla game does not have these at all. Available again cheap/free. These defensive units are used by the AI to 'escort', go figure?

And 'drum rolls please', The AI uses Armies provided the above conditions are met, with WAR. That's it! Just good ole fashioned war, whether initiated by the AI or the human. Check it out.

And these armies are full-up, plentiful and far ranging.
Oh, and every single one, every single time. (well I have only tested 50 times )

Last edited by Antrine on 17-07-2004 at 04:19

	17-07-2004 04:26									#19
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Those conditions were certainly met in my game of AU 503.

	17-07-2004 04:50									#20
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Never played AU 503, however it sounds very intriguing !!

	17-07-2004 07:17									#21
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antrine:

in my game, the AI loaded armies with 2 spearmen and attacked. Often i've also seen spearmen/archer combos very early on (2 man was max per army in my game).


the key, imo, is the AI needs to think the army is expendable - and you do this by giving it no(low) shield value.

	17-07-2004 08:17									#22
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No doubt, however does your Mod meet 'all' the requirements stated above. I take no chances, each AI gets over 60 units at start-up. No chance not to work. Additionally, the palace as you know spits out armies with other various improvements that the AI's are sure to build early on are keyed to keep the conditions met all along the way with 'free' units every so many turns.

	17-07-2004 09:31									#23
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Now there's a cool idea... Modding the palace to spit out armies. Since the AI uses them, I wonder what frequency to spit them out at. Wouldn't want to overdo it, it would tend to unbalance the game I would think.

	17-07-2004 09:35									#24
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Every fifteen turns , Also remember to Mod on General tab the number of armies per city. Default is 4 cities to one army. I have 1 city to 1 army. However, this limit ONLY impacts city build not units coming by improvement such as the palace in this case.

Also the palace idea is not mine orginally, someone else around here nearby figured that one out. However, I took to it. Thanks whoever you are and am sorry I do not remember exactly.

	17-07-2004 12:22									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Antrine Here is how it works ! 1. Cheap/free armies for the AI best (lots of them is nice) 2. A plentiful amount of 'early offensive uniis' with good movement range. The vanilla game is lacking here. Available by same conditions cheap/free. 3. A plentiful amount of fast move defensive units, again the vanilla game does not have these at all. Available again cheap/free. These defensive units are used by the AI to 'escort', go figure? And 'drum rolls please', The AI uses Armies provided the above conditions are met, with WAR. That's it! Just good ole fashioned war, whether initiated by the AI or the human. Check it out. And these armies are full-up, plentiful and far ranging. Oh, and every single one, every single time. (well I have only tested 50 times )

Hmm...
Could it be possibile that AI got messed up by giving armies ability to get +1movment? (hard-coded, can't be removed)
So when army get filled with one foot unit, it gets movment 2.
AI then looks to add unit with same movement as army.
AI doens't find any such unit.
Army becomes passive.


P.S.
Could you post your moded rules here.
I'll like to inspect rules changes myself.

	17-07-2004 13:03									#26
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One thing for sure.
Loading armies definetly depends from mobile units.
Look at this save.
It uses lightly moded rules.
From importatnt things, it makes an army every 50 turns in palace.
Also, I put cost of army to 0, but I don't think it has any direct impact on these results.

One thing to notice is that AI's usualy put its first foot unit into the amry (maybe it has something to do with having no mobile units at that momebt available).
Later they only fill it with mobile units, otherwise it stays empty.
In this example, only civs with available mobile attackers did filled their armies.

I'm still not sure what happens in first unit put in army is mobile unit like Horsemen or Knight.
Will it load other 2-move units into it, or will wait for cavalry, since it had movement of 3?

Attachment: army debug.sav
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).

	17-07-2004 13:15									#27
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Your 'army debug.sav' is a save game?
I am having trouble figuring out how to save/export the rules?
I tried just to upload the scenario file, however it is the wrong type for the board's upload service. Can unzip RAR file?
And I have load of unique units and have not amended the Text files fully.

	17-07-2004 13:16									#28
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Oh I think I might figure out something, I look into the file tree some more.

If I collect the text files and unit files and let's see, I'll look at how others do this.

	17-07-2004 13:30									#29
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Another save, but with bad relusts.
Zero armies total.

Same rulset as before, but with following modifications.
All ancient and medieval units have movement rating of 2.
Sicnce every made army gets movement of 3, AI don't load any unit in it.


P.S.
But, I gess after AI gets Military Tradition, that situation will repair itself.

Attachment: army debug2.sav
This has been downloaded 0 time(s).

	17-07-2004 13:31									#30
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For those who for some reason or other don't want to break the 1 army per 4 cities rule, all they have to do is make the palace produce Leaders instead. but that then depends on the AI having the intelligence to create an Army from the Leader instead of other uses. Has anyone checked out the AI to see if it makes Armies out of Leaders or does it just overwhelmingly prefer to speed up production with the Leaders it acquires?

Edit:

Actually, for that matter, what would the AI do if you just turned off the ability of a Leader to finish improvements, leaving it with only Army creation as a choice? I always thought that was kinda too much capability for one unit anyhow, and what is forced labor for? I'd leave the science age ability turned on, that way if for some reason it reached its 1 per 4 city limit, it could use it for science instead.

Last edited by Gray_Lensman on 17-07-2004 at 13:52