11-07-2004 14:33									#1
	ACDG Minigame - Diplomacy Advice... Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Hi,

(to avoid any confusion in the first place, this is about the minigame, not the real ACDG3)

I just met my first faction ever in a MP SMAC game and would like to seek some advice now. (Good it is still the ACDG minigame and not an ordinary PBEM ).

Current state of affairs:
Year 2128, just founded my 6th base (Morgan Processing), got IA two turns ago. A seventh pod will finish at Morgan Metallurgy next turn. Every base except MorInd (Def Synth Probe) is making crawlers. Cash is 0 although I'm making 25 cr/turn now so that does not hurt , Biogenetics in a few turns.

Last turn I met a seething (and jungle based!) Domai in the north, giftet him quite a few techs (CentEcol, IndEcon, PlanNet) and exchanged IA for a Treaty. (was that too much?) He went dramatically up the power chart... (Before him, I was the tech leader, thanks for the good foundation, guys )

Planned uture strategy:
Manufacturing:
Plant the 7th base towards Domai, plant enough forests, each base gets 2 permanent crawlers on forests, continue with crawlers, insta-build the HGP, then the PTS. One probe team will infiltrate Domai ASAP, one probe team will go to the sea.
(What about rectanks somewhere in between?)

Nut heavy bases will be making pods, mineral heavy bases arount Mt Planet will be making a second former for each base and probe defenses for each base.
After that I'll drop another one or two bases on the Domai front, then expand to the west (and south) with a vengeance. The southern area will become my navy dock area (two or three coastal bases more)

Research:
Biogen, Flex, then most probably directly to restriction lifting because of Mt Planet energy abundance (although I'm not quite sure yet since Deidre AI is known for early AdapEcon & PEG building).

Diplomacy:
Domai is invited to expand a bit more to the south-east (from his view) to become a good and secure barrier between me and anyone else from the north and east.

Main question now: Would it make sense to try becoming Pact Brother to Domai (more commerce (he must have been growing like a weed in that jungle) and regularly feeding him some mediocre techs) or is a friendship sufficient because of not becoming involved in any conflict he might trigger?

Intelligence sidenote: Hercules played the last Angel turn in the minigame instead of Geo with the comment "For better or for worse:".

Thanks for any comments but not too much (the real thing is more important)

	11-07-2004 14:37									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

One attachment might be helpful:

Attachment: acdg3_mini_morgan_2128_endturn.zip
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).

	11-07-2004 17:56									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I'll download the turn and take a look at it in the morning. Do you have the turn from the beginning as well? I need to see how Domai would have reacted in other situations.

A Pact with Domai certainly seems best. No one can build military like he can, and Morgan certainly doesn't have any hopes in that regard in the early game. By giving him those techs, you've probably allowed him to concentrate on military ones for a while. Good for you if he helps to defend you, very bad otherwise.

	11-07-2004 18:19									#4
	Suffering from ads?

From the "While we are waiting game" thread:
http://www.apolyton.com/go.php?foru...&postid=3137042

	11-07-2004 18:55									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

It sounds to me like you were execivly generous, I always take the "This continent isn't big enough for the 2 of us" atitude. Admitedly Morgan vs Jungle Domi isn't a good match up for us so probly best to be peacefull for the time being. Once we have built up our Economy and Industry we can Concour him and consolidate control of the whole land mass.

Consentrate on getting your SP's done for now and getting your exploration ships out exploring and Poping Pods. If you have any AAs use them for thouse Projects especialy if other factions start to build them as well. With HGP and PTS you will be set. Expand as far to the north as possible, squeeze Domi down to as little land as possible, then turn southward. You should have almost no problem with Drones if you can get both thouse projects. It would also be good to get SotHB at this point for Crawler upgrading it takes 90 Credits to upgrade too a synth trance Crawler. It might even be worthwial to change your alocations to 80% Econ so as to rapidly get the Credits for thouse Projects. I would say you need 5 upgraded Crawlers for both thouse projects. Also make shure you have Recycling tanks before PTS so your expanded populations dont starve.

	11-07-2004 19:20									#6
	Put an end to popups!

The sooner you get HGP, the sooner you can expand to the second b-limit.

Re: PTS... A two-nutrient square at each base can substitute for an RT, although the ideal situation is an RT and three forests. But as long as you have the nutrients, don't delay PTS. Most of it's power is it's "head start" effect. Then only after I build PTS, I'll put out a few crawlers to crawl.

I would agree giving Domai IA is awfully generous. If there are any players in contact with him, they can trade or probe to get it.

	11-07-2004 20:33									#7
	Support Apolyton

Since this isn't the actual game, we might want to make it official policy to butter up the comps with lots of tech. How the AI responds to bribery will be useful in our current game. If we find a few more comps, we might have to instigate a war.

We also might want to wait on building the SPs, and see how long it will take the human players to build them.

	11-07-2004 20:54									#8
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

The minigame doesn't have the same diplomatic setups however. Anything we could gleen from it wouldn't help for our specific situation.

	12-07-2004 03:39									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

We seem to be using the same strategy in both games. If the other teams are lazy, they'd be using the same strategy as well. The only thing I'm concerned about is revealing which projects we are going to go for and how fast.

In the very least, This game would be useful to see how the AI responds to bribery.

Last edited by arginine on 12-07-2004 at 03:50

	12-07-2004 07:18									#10
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

How's the early Flex thing going, AndiD? Get out there and infiltrate!

	12-07-2004 11:15									#11
	Suffering from ads?

I didn't go for Flex before IA to carry over the "momentum" of the first 10 minerals at several (non-coastal) bases (first time I was able to calculate something like that beforehand ). After Biogen, I'll Flex and probe them. But thanks for the reminder!

	19-07-2004 22:44									#12
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Just skimmed the entire turn tracking thread for the minigame... it is "intense rivalry" ON - well I think I got lucky with that Domai treaty after all.
Anyone here having played any game with that setting against the AI?


FWIW, some intelligence info about the other factions in 2138:. (Gaians are AI):
- Sparta: Kassiopeia is only one playing (a Captain, so noone high ranking)
- Sparta seems to go military, were leading in Mil until I fed techs to Domai and he started building advanced stuff...
- Sparta still Frontier/Simple/Survival in 2138.
- Sparta currently lowest of human factions

- Angels: (Mostly) Geo and (sometimes) Hercules are playing (either they waste their precious (= little, 12 members) resources in coordinating themselves or playing without in-depth strategy)
- Angels had a sudden tech surge, either pod popped or did SotHB -> IA (?); they are now in tech lead (OK, I have been doing 60 econ / 40 labs for a few years now to rush-build my crawlers)
- Angels got IA about 8 years after me (not from Domai, they don't have his comm freq)
- Angels were quickly doing Frontier/Planned/Survival and switched to Wealth as soon as they got IA.
- Angels still don't have Biogenetics, HGP should be MINE

- Both don't seem to place much focus on horizontal expansion, I'm still the best in territory in 2138 with seven bases...
- Both are rather quick in turnplay.

- Noone has started any SP yet.

Darn, SotHB's free tech could have been mine, with Domai, Believers and Cult as AI there is noone able to match my research speed; Morgan equals the Uni in that relation...

	19-07-2004 23:15									#13
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Trust me, being on the receiving end of all the crap he can throw at you is not a good thing, and by keeping him up with techs, none of the other factions can bribe him with techs(though they will be able to probe from him).

	19-07-2004 23:16									#14
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Sparta can't switch to fm this early, it would kill them. Though they should be in planned unless they just skipped that tech.

	22-07-2004 20:22									#15
	Full PM-box? Change here!

It's me again, interrupting the really important discussions...

HGP completed in 2141, first one to complete any SP. PTS is due in a few turns, just getting those bases down back to size 1 before and expand.

I met the Spartans! or rather... they met me with a gun foil. (A synth def probe in your coastal base prevents a naval unit from taking it... didn't know that before... got lucky, I suppose...) We're at informal truce now, he's a bit below in the power graph but leader in military again.

As we discussed some while ago, a pact with the Spartans could be feasible for both sides, they focus on military techs, exploration and conquest and I focus on builder stuff and cash. Cooperative victory is on, so we can stay pacted, crush every other faction and win together in the end. (apart from betrayal of course...).

Question now since I don't have any SMACX multiplayer diplomacy experience: Shall I contact Kass or shall I wait till he contacts me? What might he think of my suggestion? Other ideas? Suggestions?

	22-07-2004 20:43									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Good job, AndiD. That HGP will prove invaluable.

I think ships can only take sea bases.

For MP diplomacy, I usually try to create a productive trade relationship both factions can benefit from. I usually contact someone right away, providing ideas for how to help each other. Ask what their goals are (so you can help them).

The possibility you have to consider is that you're their first contact, their juiciest target, and their reason to build a big army and go hunting. Get sensors up, get synth def probes, think about getting HEC for Plasma armor, and think about getting Impact weapons. Attack power is a good defense-- you can hurt them on the way in, and possibly retake captured bases.

	23-07-2004 13:32									#17
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Survived my first diplomatic negotiations. Dealed a Treaty and a world map (they got the unity wreckage -> landing sites) for Planetary Networks. The latter is the reason they found me so quickly. We made some intelligence data exchange, too.

He presumes that the (AI) Gaians met the Angels and that a Militarist-Industrialist block (Sparta, Morgan, Drones) will be against a Anarcho-Hippie block (Angels, Gaia, Cult), with the Believers somewhere in between probably.

I won't do a Pact until I can project some strength and have more than one synth def probe and two unity rovers around.

(He did buy that I researched "not only Build techs" against Jungle Domai... well I did research Explore and Discover techs, didn't I? )

	24-07-2004 23:35									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Okay, got the world map from the Spartans. I'm slightly irritated about Kass's base layouts on the map, spaced rather far apart, lots of coastal bases, lots of forest but no roads?! Is that a known tactic for the Spartans or just no skill (or part of a "formless strategy" pretending to have no skill)?

Anyway, I'm going to complete the PTS in two turns (crawler cashing!) and I think about asking Kass for Lal's comm frequency (he most certainly has met Lal) in exchange for either the Drone's comm frequency (they are seething so he most probably can't do anything with him) or 20 energy credits (going up to max. 30).

Lal usually researches Applied Physics, Non-linear Math, Doc: Loyalty (especially if under pressure), SotHB and EthCalc quite early on... all four techs would certainly be helpful to me now. If Kass wants to crush Lal afterwards, he is free to do so (and I will tell him that).

With the Spartan (and soon the PK) Treaty and 3 workers per base I will soon be making 50+ Cr/turn on a 50-50 setting...

Any general advice / suggestions / opinions?

	25-07-2004 02:17									#19
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I'm tempted to urge you to go for a different SP, but the other humans probably think we will play differently in the real game, so I won't gripe.

You will have the PTS soon. Once you do, set about finding, and infiltrating all that you can find. I'd try to meet and infiltrate the Angels ASAP. I bet they have some good info, and would be worth talking to.

Once you have enough information, you might want see how to align the factions to ensure maximum trade. Ideally, you'd meet with the Angels next, and try to get information out of them.

	25-07-2004 03:48									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Roads are critical for moving troops, crawlers, and formers. You lose a lot of resources if they walk instead of drive. I could see how someone might forest first to get the resource benefit first, then road over it, but at this stage, there should already be roads connecting bases at the very least. OTOH, if he plans to use lots of transports to ship out troops, roads would be irrelevant for invading others. Maybe he wants to build lots and lots of probe ships, too? The fastest way to build lots of them is to have lots of coastal bases. However, as is often the case, a strength can be a weakness as well. It would take a lot of resources to defend all those bases against infiltration.

	01-08-2004 13:36									#21
	Support Apolyton

Again an update:

Exploration with my only probe foil went well, I met the Believers (lowest on the power graph), exchanged Applied Physics for Gene Splicing and signed a Treaty two turns ago and met now an Angel probe team. Bought Deidre's comm frequency from Miriam, again a Treaty, this time for nothing! I was very surprised, since I have been running Dem/Market/Wealth for years now.

=> If you are very powerful (PTS!), pathetic and feeble AIs want Treaties with you. And we're talking about intense rivalry here...

Council was not going so well, Lal and Miri voted for Domai (currently 2nd on the powergraph thanks to Kass dealing a Treaty with him for techs), most probably our Governor for the next 20 years.

Angels are third in power, just a few pixels below Domai, imagine they would have become Governor and infiltration on every faction! Thinking about this, I like a Governor Domai still better...

Have invited Herc for diplomatic talks, they have about the same techs as me (presumably HEC and/or Non-linear math instead of Gene Splicing and Ecological Engineering). Due to tech trades and mod 3 rogue techs I still haven't managed to even see HEC or Doc:Loy as a choice yet. At least, if I get HEC, I can get SynthFossilFuels next round and skip Non-linear math.

I'll aim for cooperative victory since noone will have the slightest chance against Morgan & Angels Builders since Kass (Spartans) doesn't ssem to play the best game and has "only" to invade a 3 base Lal and a 3 base Miriam next. (Well, he could invade me but needs transports for that and I can beat him with subversion (doing 90 cr/turn now) and sheer numbers of scouts).

Angels are on the very far side of the map (they still don't have any idea where I am located) so if they want to mount an invasion it will have to be underway for a looong time. I assume we'd both take a beat if it came down to a fight.

Sidenote: Angels finished the WP a few turns ago, still no other SPs built yet. I'd be going for the PEG as soon as some rudimentary defenses are in place.

	01-08-2004 21:07									#22
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Your doing wonderfully AndiD, I would venture to say you have the game bascialy in your pocket at this point unless everyone starts plotting against you right now.

Keep up your PTS city sprawl, I see a nice location up in the north along the Drone Border just north of a Monolith. You should be able to steal a Jungle Nut Bonus from the Drones and get a large chunk of Jungle. Lay down some farms and you will be able to crawler feed a lot of bases out of the size 3 rut.

Keep exploring southward and see just how much land you have to work with. Invest your considerable income each turn in Tanks, Rec Commons and Childrens Chreeches on your more peripheral bases.

It might also be wise to start bumping up Research alocation soon and Pych when you start to get Drone problems.

Invest in more navy as well, I dont think they all need to be Probe Foils though some cheaper transports would be handy for simple Pod Poping, your likly going to be so far ahead in tec theirs nothing to steal but you can always infiltrate (might as well infiltrate thouse spartans).

We should try to duplicate your mini-game sucess in the main game, HGP and PTS

	01-08-2004 21:08									#23
	Put an end to popups!

start buildings actual units :P

	07-08-2004 22:22									#24
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Just checked out the 2159 turn, you are kicking butt, good work. Going to infiltrate gaia this turn? They are all going to docpile on to you aren't they?

also you got hec, which means you can upgrade that foil you are building, rush it, snag the prototype, then build probes everywhere and upgrade them.

	08-08-2004 01:48									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Continuing my damn the aliens are rigged speech, I just beat my record and got the HGP in the late 2120s. 2 ogres(1 from cloning the unit) + 1 AA + some cash.

	26-08-2004 01:09									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Update: I became Governor a few turns ago and am currently in the process of preparing every base for pop-booming, except Morgan Energy Monopoly which is making clean (!) scouts as garrison for every base.

As soon as a former becomes unemployed and I have spare cash, I'm making it clean.

I will be absent till Monday, if anyone wants to, feel free to play ahead.

If anyone does so, please contact Kassiopeia and ask for a new destination of the sea former. (I made a deal a few turns ago, entire world map in exchange for a sea former, since the MorInd, MorBank, MorEnt area is pretty much developed)

We have developed a very good relationship, I got SotHB from him for Gene Splicing (after he made Lal submissive), Doc:Loy for EcolEng and he voted for my Governorship for infiltration data on the Angels.

I contacted Herc for a few times but he does not seem to be interested in diplomacy at all.

Miriam declared Vendetta last turn when her Impact Cruiser met my probe foil... well... I simply bought the Impact Cruiser for 143 cr and it popped a unity pod which contained 100 cr. It currently causes two peace drones in Morgan Data Systems but that is manageable for the moment. I hope I lose this Impact Cruiser to an IoD soon while sea pod popping...

	10-09-2004 18:31									#27
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Just checked out the minigame, when are you going to grab the wonders available?

	10-09-2004 19:01									#28
	Increase Your PM Length

In the next turns I'll be building nothing but crawlers and cash in those I don't need anymore for booming. I got MMI faster than expected therefore I'm a bit unprepared but hell, the Angels will get D:AP in a few turns and don't have Neural Grafting yet.

	30-09-2004 09:32									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Still kicking butt I see. All of your cities are size 13 now, awesome. Plus you are going to take all of Domai's holdings.

765 credits per turn, 2 turn tech, space flight next turn, and you have loads of noodles and choppers. Kinda interesting that the Angels have such a wide swath of territory, but you'll probably regain the territory marker once you take all of Domai's stuff. I think this starting point wasn't fair, atleast in the sense that Domai was supposed to declare war on you sooner, instead of build up an empire to deliver to you.

Whats the deal with the pact Domai has with the spartans?

	30-09-2004 18:49									#30
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Domai's interest in the game is only BUILD, not BUILD and CONQUER as usual (?), that helped for sure.

Currently is sunspot time, Spartans are Human, one of my sea formers currently works for Kassi, dunno what he will do. Domai declared war on me though, not the other way round.