11-07-2004 14:57									#1
	Changes to city list for the Russians? Increase Your PM Length

Ok, have looked through the archives, and not seen it mentioned there, but I may have missed it.

Any reason why there have been major changes to the Russian city list with Conquests? I play them a lot, and it was a shame to see no more Kiev, Riga, Minsk or even Baku or Tblisi. I know those mentioned are now capitals of countries, but for a long time they were under Russian control, are we now editing history?

	11-07-2004 16:19									#2
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I too think it's a shame.

It's apparently an attempt at PCcy.

	11-07-2004 18:18									#3
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If we are going down THAT route, then best change a few things:

1) Take out Luanda, Rio Janiero and Sao Paolo from the Portugese, as those cities are now in either Angola or Brazil.

2) Hippo Regius taken out from the Romans (Hippo Regius was originally founded by the Carthaginians I believe).

3) ANY city ending with "polis" from the Egyptians, as thats Greek.

4) Salzburg from the Germans, as its an Austrian city.

5) Rename all the Chinese cities correctly, as Canton should be Guangzhou.

6) Take out the cities now in Pakistan from the Indian list.

7) Remove Antioch (founded by Greek dynasty after Alexander), Sidon and Tyre (both Phoenician) from the Persian list.

I don't think it's right to mess with one civilization in the game because of Political Correctness if you aren't going to apply the same rules to ALL the others.

	11-07-2004 18:34									#4
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Actually, Salzburg wasn't Austrian before Napoleon - it was an independent clerical state.
Most successful move of Austria? making the whole world believe Hitler was German and Mozart Austrian

However, the German list could need a lot of work (Königsberg!).

And yes, it looks a lot like PCish, but then, there are easily enough genuine Russian cities, and the citizens of Ukraine, the Baltic states or the Caukasians my be a little more iffy here due to recent history, so why not?

	11-07-2004 18:43									#5
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I know what you mean about the German list, its rather.. short! And yes, Salzburg was an independant clerical state, but if things are changed with the civilizations because of the here and now, it should be removed. I guess Königsberg is included as it was the capital of Prussia for a long time, though there are plenty of other large German town and cities that aren't on the list that should be. Dresden and Wiesbaden jump to mind quite easily.

As for the genuine Russian cities, yes its true there are plenty to choose from, but why change it now, why not at the beginning of making Civ III? I've made a scenario file with all the missing names put back in, plus added to a few names to some of the other civilizations with hardly any names like Germany or India, as seeing Delhi2 or Berlin2 is a bit naff!

	11-07-2004 19:00									#6
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It can be amusing when you see the same city appear under its different names for different civs. Eboracum, Jorvik, York.

	11-07-2004 19:02									#7
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IIRC, there's an entry in the c3c credits to someone who provided the Russian names, so I'd guess they simply didn't have it before...

And yes, the German list is about the worst - city #2 is RL 13th biggest, with no particular historical importance (Leipzig). Even a number of Bundesland capitals are missing; Dresden, Wiesbaden, Mainz, Düsseldorf. Not to speak of the running gag 'Heidelburg' :vomit: ...

quote: Eboracum, Jorvik, York.

Just finished a nice game where I moved my capital to York pretty early (more central, not coastal location), and built the FP later in Eburacum . Not for style points, it just was the best city for that.

	11-07-2004 21:42									#8
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Dauphin, Ive had games where ive controlled York, Eburacum, New Eburacum (those Celts expanded quickly) Eboracum (Roman) and New York (wrested from the Americans), can be quite funny, but also a bit confusing at times.

Doc T, maybe Leipzig was included as it was one of the major cities of East Germany, only reason I can think of. Plus if they are going to have Salzburg, then why not have Vienna as well, would make sense.

Am still editing my scenario file, any idea why there is a Kazan' in Russians and Kazan in Mongols? Now thats going to get me confused at some point as my current game now has me up against those pesky Mongols!

	11-07-2004 21:51									#9
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quote: 3) ANY city ending with "polis" from the Egyptians, as thats Greek.

The names are Greek, yes. The actual cities in some cases, like Hieraconpolis, far predate anything we'd call Greek civilization.

	11-07-2004 21:56									#10
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quote: Am still editing my scenario file, any idea why there is a Kazan' in Russians and Kazan in Mongols? Now thats going to get me confused at some point as my current game now has me up against those pesky Mongols!

Because the Russians got a closer transcription of the Russian name, while the Mongols got to make do with the traditional anglicization.

	12-07-2004 06:08									#11
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This was the first thing I noticed when playing C3C for the first time:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=117065

	12-07-2004 06:19									#12
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quote: Originally posted by FinalEndeavour Am still editing my scenario file, any idea why there is a Kazan' in Russians and Kazan in Mongols? Now thats going to get me confused at some point as my current game now has me up against those pesky Mongols!

This is actually one and the same city. It was founded by Golden Horde, and later captured by the Russians. Last Conformist is right about transcription. And it also has to do with pronunciation. Russians pronounce it with a solf 'n', while Tatars with a hard 'n'.

Anyway, I doubt it was a wise decision to include it into two different civs simultaneously.

	13-07-2004 02:44									#13
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Better to have taken out Kazan instead of somewhere like Vitebsk, I took out Kazan from the Russians and let the Mongols have it, my new list for Russia has 50 unique cities now.. and Germany now has 45! How will Bismarck cope without having Berlin2?

	14-07-2004 21:19									#14
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I have qualms.

Portugal SHOULD have what are now Brazilian/Angolan cities it its list because it founded them & for quite some time Brazil WAS Portugal! (Royal Portugal, anyway).

However, if Brazil is made into a Civ then what happens to Portugal? Does it become a 'Hittite' Civ, overlapped by later civs. (Hittites -> Romans -> Byzantines -> Ottomans ... *arg!*)

One thing I've never had the chance to find out... I know that the game will not repeat city names within a Civ, but what about across the whole map? Can there be two Richmonds or two New Yorks between the American and English civs?

...

Maybe this is justification for a completely retooled Civ4 model, something along the lines of the "History of the World" board game.

	14-07-2004 22:53									#15
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quote: Originally posted by CarnalCanaan I have qualms. Can there be two Richmonds or two New Yorks between the American and English civs?

I don't see why not after all there are already two Richmonds in England .

	15-07-2004 00:45									#16
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Yes, but the game makes sure that every name for a city is unique, so youd have to call it something like Richmond and Richmond upon Thames, same with Kingston in the UK.

	15-07-2004 01:48									#17
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Yes, I realise that, I was just joking. I played the French recently and was a little disappointed with the short list of French city names. It wasn't just smallish places like Calais missing, but major cities like Lille. It's only chrome, I know, but someone should buy Firaxis an atlas.

Last edited by Firefly on 15-07-2004 at 03:10

	15-07-2004 02:15									#18
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I think the city names are slightly more than chrome, as unique names for each one really do add to the game atmosphere, while "Berlin 2" detracts from it, especially if you're trying to immerse yourself in the idea of building your empire. In any event, there are some excellent city lists for all 31 civs floating around, and hopefully we'll see exhaustive lists in cIV. It's a low-resource, low-effort way to improve the game.

	16-07-2004 02:04									#19
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I just added a bunch of city names to all the civs (well, what i could find anyway). most major modern civs will never run out of names in my game :P

i'm just annoyed by the slow cut and paste interface i have to use to re-add them every time the game is patched or the bic changed.

	16-07-2004 02:15									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin It can be amusing when you see the same city appear under its different names for different civs. Eboracum, Jorvik, York.

At least it's NEW York when you play the Americans!

EDIT: Should have read the whole thread before replying