13-07-2004 10:39									#1
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Lots of talk on CIV but no threads on those pesky BARBS


How would you people prefer them, Civ1/2 style in which they were like regular units and could capture/destroy cities? Or Civ3 style where they were just nuicanses which captured gold or destroyed builds but had no city-capturing capability?


Personally I'd like to see them go back to the Civ1/2 style especially since they would also land from the sea. They should perhaps be considered "minor civs" with the ability to turn into "major civs" after causing enough damage to their neighbors. Like in Civ3 they should have some "origin" which could be destroyed and pillaged as well.

-MZ

	13-07-2004 10:44									#2
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I voted for the wrong option. I wanted to vote for a combination. As MZ said, they would come from a camp, can capture cities, and even possibly become an empire/real civ.

	13-07-2004 11:41									#3
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Having them act as Minor Civs and in a Civ2-like way sounds really cool. That's the combination of both, right? (that's how I voted).

Nice idea.

-Drachasor

	13-07-2004 14:26									#4
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I agree. In Civ3 you can always gamble by having weak defenses and loosing ocasional gold and prod to barbs...

	13-07-2004 15:41									#5
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A minor Civ that can go up, that's good. And you'd have to destroy all of their units (except workers, maybe) to defeat them.

	13-07-2004 18:03									#6
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I voted for a combo.

I think barbs should wipe out size1's. Just raze 'em.

Size2-4, maybe, could be taken over, ala CivII. If they manage to pull 2 or 3 cities together, maybe that could result in graduation to "major civ" status.

With larger cities, they should steal some gold, carry off some people and/or destroy some structures.

It should be nasty. Barbs should be able to land from boats, and I definitely want them to increase in power over time like in CivII. The early barbs can be warriors/horsemen, but as time passes they should get beefed up (though I'd say they shouldn't get knights but rather a CivIV equivalent of ancient cav - something strong but not ridiculous). In the early medieval, they should get amphibious ability - barb 'zerks, weakened a bit but still nasty enough to make you scramble. For clarity's sake, the reason I don't want their units too strong is that I'd like to see little to now combat bonus vs. barbs. In fact, barbs should probably be regular or vet units, not conscripts.

Barb encampments should be much more difficult to take out than they are in CivIII. Not only should they accumulate defenders (spawing them regularly over time), but simply building a city nearby should not "dissolve" the encampment. I could see allowing cultural conversion of the tile (easier than flipping a city in CivIII, but requiring at least some investment in culture by the player) after some time, but not right away. In the meantime, developing that city should be difficult with barbs spawing right next door.

-Arrian

	13-07-2004 22:37									#7
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I want them as in Civ2.

	14-07-2004 02:06									#8
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Civ2, also.
Unless those bananabarbs work out.

	14-07-2004 02:40									#9
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I voted for the combonation. I liked having named barbs come from someplace... but nothing was cooler than seeing the barbarians get a foothold someplace.

However, I would love to see barbarians abandoned in favor of those minor civs that keep getting brought up. They would have cities, build units, maybe attack neighbors, and have a chance at "promotion" when a free civ slot opens up.

	14-07-2004 02:50									#10
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Then wouldn't you have to eliminate the minor civs first or the game will last forever?

	14-07-2004 03:41									#11
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I'd like to have 3 levels of civs.

major civs - this is the player and the main computer civs, much as we have now.

Barbarians - these spawn randomly in wilderness areas. Their technology advances over time as per civ2, and their ai may be either for razing or for capturing cities.

Minor civ - a barbarian tribe that captures a city becomes one automatically (along with all barbarian units in, say 15 tile radius). They also appear at the start spread evenly over the map and with a few extra concentrated near major civs. Minor civ ai is usually aimed at very slow expansion and survival. They never start wars, but will finish them.

Any minor civ that ever becomes significantly stronger than the weakest major civ gets promoted. This will usually happen as a result of a major civ taking a pounding.

Any time the number of major civs drops below the original number, the strongest minor civ gets promoted.

Major civ status is never lost.

major/minor promotion status should be controllable for scenarios.

	14-07-2004 05:28									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Nuclear Master Then wouldn't you have to eliminate the minor civs first or the game will last forever?

I'm not sure what you mean here. Do you mind explaining your concern further?

Thanks

	14-07-2004 05:35									#13
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Well let's say there are twenty minor civilizations. That means, until all twenty are eliminated, your game will last an extremely large amount of time, and almost impossible if you plan for a military victory.

	14-07-2004 07:13									#14
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Okay, thanks... a couple of thoughts on that spring to my mind:

Firstly, a complete conquest victory should be hard. Really hard. The minor civ to major civ style leaves lots of room for domination style victories.

We will be dealing with a finite number of cities on the map. Eventually the land grab will end and you'll have the major civs owning the big chunks of the world, and minors filling in the cracks. So if a particular map that has 200 cities in it is what you're playing on, then it won't make a difference to your conquest victory if they are owned by minors or majors. You have X cities to take, not a particular number of nations to kill.

Lastly, it doesn't strike me that making one type of victory less easy is a sound justification of writing off a game feature. With all the lusting over minor civs that goes on in the fan community, it could really be one of the "killer features" that Soren seems to by living for right now.

Completely remodeling the idea of "barbarians" to be many small civs who don't play on the major diplomatic stage and only know techs that they slowly absorb from the major civs nearest to them could add so much to the game. Several isolated minor civs could represent an aborigne population on an undiscoverd continent, powerful nations could srping from truly humble beginnings, and diplomacy could gain a huge boost.

You could have limited diplomatic contacts with barbarian minor civs, paying them to attack an enemy, agreeing not to kill them in exchange for tribute, or living peacfully with them long enough to purchase their annexation to your land. Two major Civs could decide amongst themselves who will "own" the less powerful (of course, actually getting the minors to see it that way would be a less diplomatic matter)


"Barbarians" being simply random units was nice for a while, and helped to make the game feel like it was taking place in a hostile, untamed world. But computer games hardware have come to the point that actually having that untamed world be a living, breathing collection of small nation-states is entirly possible.

And that sounds like a lot more fun, to me, than an easy conquest.

Regards, Fosse

	14-07-2004 07:23									#15
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They should have their own quasi-cities, and be dangerous to your actual empire. They should raze most cities.

	14-07-2004 07:56									#16
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Conquest is not easy now, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

	15-07-2004 01:34									#17
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Well, unless we implement a system in whcih is square is always populated, Barbarian units should spring up every so often from the wildernesses and jungles. There should be 3 types, based on tech level and age.

1. Sea people's- barbarians that invade from the seas and both take cities and raze cities. They would only appear in the very early ages and be of a similar tech level to the leading civ. Basically the Phillistines. BY the mid-middle ages they should no longer appear.

2. Nomadic hordes-the Arayans, Huns, Mongols, Magyars would all fall under this class- massive invasions of powerful mounted units, interested in both pillage and conquest- would be a danger well into the middle ages

3. Wilderness barbarians: randomly pop out of dense jungles or forrests to pillage and rob- they last during the entire game and advance in tech accordingly. They would represent random tribes in such areas, bandits, guerrillas and other groups.

The idea of massive barbarian hordes in modern ages like in civ2 should not occur since this should be dealt with the political and unhappiness engine. But barbariand in Conquest are too weak.

	15-07-2004 01:36									#18
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I also think it would be neat to negotiate with barbarians, and even bribe them to attack another person. However, it would cost a lot, and there was a chance of it being discovered by the other civilization.

	15-07-2004 02:01									#19
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Well, you could always institute 2 diplomatic options or choices:

Pay tribute, which means that for a certain amount of gold you keep barbarians away for some time and

Bribe barbarians to attack.

That would be easier to implement than actual negotiations.

	15-07-2004 02:07									#20
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That is what I meant. I'd like to see an option as giving the barbarians units to attack the other civilization as well.

	15-07-2004 23:27									#21
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ohhh bribe barbs to do stuff, me likey

Barbs should take/raze cities depending on time period and type, and any barb that takes cities becomes a normal civ. (minor civs are just too limited imo)

	16-07-2004 19:12									#22
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One city isn't enough, every barb tribe can be lucky and conquer a town at the right moment. The minimum should be: two towns or one city (bigger than 6).

	16-07-2004 20:29									#23
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I like the "two towns" requirement.

The barb should also get a significant number of helper units and not transfer into a "real" government until it has several more cities.

	17-07-2004 00:59									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Nuclear Master I also think it would be neat to negotiate with barbarians, and even bribe them to attack another person. However, it would cost a lot, and there was a chance of it being discovered by the other civilization.

Simply fantastic,
but for a higher price paid for by the civ you tried to hurt, they could do unto you

this could prove to be very entertaining

	17-07-2004 01:02									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker I like the "two towns" requirement. The barb should also get a significant number of helper units and not transfer into a "real" government until it has several more cities.

follow me on this thought:

As they grow they could become a minor civ, as they get up to 20 cities, they become a major civ. AND the could be attacked by the barbarians?

	17-07-2004 02:35									#26
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I'd like(as some others here I see) the barbs to be much like Civ2, in regards of them having units that moves around and makes mess(untill modern times that is). But take the mongols IRL for example. They are a good example of a barbarian tribe turning empire. They had been a nuisance for quite some time for the Chinese, then they suddenly get lucky(?) and quickly takes their neightbours by force, grows and grows, and becomes an empire. Good example of lajzar's idea basically.

Then take the goths(both ostro- and visi-): They comes out of "nowhere", conquers parts of RE, but remains weak and small compared to f.ex. the Mongols. A good example of barbs turning minor civ?