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Gray_Lensman
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My vanilla version of Conquests after the version 1.22 upgrade, has my Spearmen set to upgrade to Pikemen in the default "conquests.biq" file.
Of course, there is no upgrade available unless you are the Carthagians and their default Spearman units are the race specific Numidian Mercenaries, obviously a MAJOR bug. This bug is definitely 'squashable', however, but it means that ALL owners will have to acquaint themselves with the use of the editor and make a permanent change to the operating "Conquest.biq" file.
Could anyone tell me if they observed this bug in the original Conquests before the 1.22 upgrade?
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Gray_Lensman
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The Numidian Mercenary is a race specific unit replacing the Spearman in the Carthagian civilization. It is not a unit for other races such as the American race to have access to in normal games. Also it is not as strong as a Pikeman, but then again it is not meant to be, since it replaces the Spearman as mentioned above and since it is a race specific unit, it does not have an upgrade. Also, note the Civilopedia still says that the Spearman upgrades to Pikeman, whereas the Numidian Mercenary has no upgrade.
Also, did some other checking and 1 of the Conquest scenarios is probably flawed too
Intro3 New Alliances (This one probably does not matter since it is limited to 100 turns, however if a person changes the number of turns at the start...)
At least this bug can be edited out.
Last edited by Gray_Lensman on 14-07-2004 at 10:31
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Gray_Lensman
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I stand corrected on the strength comparisons.
However, if you check the the other race specific units, in the editor, none of them none of them are upgradeable, and most of them are only available to one, possibly two other civilizations. (not sure)
Also, since the Numidian Mercenary is set to only be available to the Carthagian group, it cannot be an upgrade to the other civilizations, hence the bug.
I have a current game as the Americans, that has the Spearmen upgrade set to Numidian Infantry, and my Spearmen cannot be upgraded. This is why I found and checked out the bug in the first place.
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Solomwi
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Don King of the Apolyton HLA Movement
Dec 2002
time: 23:34
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I've played 1.22 with several different civs, and not had a problem upgrading spears in any of the games. My guess is that you either lack iron, lack barracks where you're trying to upgrade or lack the cash to upgrade. Again, if a unit not available to a particular civ is in the upgrade path, it is simply skipped over, hence no bug.
Every other unique unit is upgradeable (except the F-15, which is at the end of the upgrade chain anyway), and none are available to more than one civilization, so I'm not really sure what you're talking about with that part.
Check the three things I mentioned, or post a save, and see if that doesn't fix your problem.
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Gray_Lensman
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Let's see:
I'm playing Americans
I have Iron, I'm building Medieval Infantry.
I have a barracks in every city, (probably overkill)
I have 100 credits
plus, the unit has not moved yet... (not sure if that matters|)
so.... barring a bad install/upgrade. I'd say there is a problem.
ps. I'm going to rule out a bad install, because more than one BIQ has this set this way.
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Gray_Lensman
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Before I post a save, I'm going to do a reinstall, just to be sure it was not induced by me in my editing trials.
This particular save is part of an edited BIQ file, so I can't rule that possibility out, although the original BIQs that I have never touched (they were backed up), have the Spearman upgrade set to Numidian Infantry.
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Gray_Lensman
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I'm not trying to upgrade to Musket...
I'm trying to upgrade Spearman to Pikeman, which I believe is 20 credits.
besides the point is moot. The upgrade path for most units in the game (Spearman) is supposed to be Pikeman, not Numidian Infantry. And I am guessing since the Numidian Infantry is set to be only available to the Carthagian player, that is the reason as an American player, that I can't upgrade the Spearman I have, all other criteria being meant.
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Gray_Lensman
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I'm building Pikeman, it's just that I have a bunch of garrisoned Spearman that would be better utilized as upgraded Pikeman...
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Gray_Lensman
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Well, in my haste to uninstall/reinstall, I saved my edited BIQ files, but forgot to save the actual game in another location... Doh! Damn, I had hours in that puppy...
I'll have to reproduce the error after the install, it'll take me a while. Probably use the debug mode of the editor to save time.
Last edited by Gray_Lensman on 14-07-2004 at 11:48
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dagta
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As Americans, I've upgraded spearmen directly to Mechanized Infantry in Conquests 1.22. I know it works for me. Perhaps you altered the upgrade path in your edited BIQ file.
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Gray_Lensman
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That's why I'm doing a reinstall. However, so far I've noted that the vanilla PTW and the 1.29 upgrade version of PTW both have implemented the change for Spearman to upgrade to Numidian Infantry (although the Civilopedia does not reflect this)
So this could be an intended change, but I suspect not. And the Civilopedia does not reflect it. Course that doesn't mean much...
I'm not gonna continue calling this bug, just a possible discrepancy.
ps Note the vanilla and v1.29 of the original Civ 3 game of course, had the upgrade path from Spearman to Pikeman.
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Gray_Lensman
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All right, finished reinstalling, and except for the original Civ3 and it's upgrade, the Spearman upgrade to Numidian Mercenaries in both the PTW and Conquests add-on.
My next question is, why didn't they bother to edit the Civilopedia after that many itinerations/upgrades. And is that what they really intended?
Also, for those who have played the PTW version before, as non-Carthagians, were you able to actually upgrade to Numidian Infantry from Spearman?
If so, then I must not have been meeting an upgrade criteria, because thet would cost more than the 20 gps that the Civilopedia quotes for upgrading to Pikemen.
I'll try to do a debug setup to test this.
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Gray_Lensman
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Interesting debug results...
Even though the Scenario file (biq) has the update set to Numidian Mercenaries, the upgrade takes place at a cost of 30 gold, but upgrades to a Pikeman, which really confuses the issue.... LOL.
I probably didn't have enough GPs and was misreading what I did have.
Oh well, bug not there in the first place. Duh! Just editor discrepancies. HeHeHe
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Gray_Lensman
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All that "skipping" is just fine, but how does the editor tie in? Is all this "skipping" hard coded in, regardless of the editor setup?
If so, the editor is just as fluky as the game software.
Basically a scenario designer must note all these little exceptions to the exceptions. Truly frustrating.
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Gray_Lensman
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All I want to know is why the editor has the Spearman set to upgrade to the Numidian Mercenary instead of Pikeman, which in reality is what actually occurs.
Unless, for some reason in the code, it is the way that the Carthagian are enabled to produce Numidian Mercenaries. I'll have to check out how that jives with other Civs UUs.
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Gray_Lensman
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Ah, the Light has finally illuminated... After studying the editor, it is obvious that all UUs are immediately free upgrades to 'only' the owning Civ (being that the cost is set to the same).
The only thing that is still confusing, is how does the game actually know that it has to skip to a Pikeman, when it can't actually upgrade to a Numidian Merc, if it's not the Carthagians.
Since it seems to be hard coded to skip over, and then what to skip to. It would present a limitation to User designed scenarios that the user is trying to design his own UUs for his own specific Civs, in that the user could not change the hard coded upgrade.
hmmm...
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vulture
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Leeds, UK
Jun 2001
time: 05:34
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Strictly, there is no reason why the spearman should upgarde to NM at all. You can have convergent upgrade paths...
spearman->pikeman->musketman
Numidian->musketman
(and hoplite->musketman for that matter).
However that doesn't work for any UUs not at the bottom of the upgrade path., e.g. legions, immortals and other sword UUs. You want to be able to upgrade to them from warriors, hence the odd rules, and the upgrade path going something like:
warrior->swordsman->legion->immortal-->medieval infantry->geurilla (?)
Note that the immortal costs less than the medieval infantry, but has the same stats. You don't want to do that upgrade.
So the rules for upgrading are: skip any units that the player is unable to build (due to being the UU of another civ, or due to lack of resources such as iron), and skip any units that have equal or worse stats than the unit being upgraded. As I understand it (or is it possible to 'upgrade' immortals to MI?)
Once you know that, all upgrades are predictable, and allow for various UUs to fit in in their required places. The only hardcoding is a generic rule that makes sense, rather than an a priori 'hoplites can't upgrade to pikes' special case.
Since you'd never want a unit to upgrade to one with worse stats, I don't think it presents any serious problems to scenario designers. The only contention might come when upgrading a 2/2/1 unit to a 1/3/1 unit, or equivalent, where it is probably a matter of personal preference (and the current situation) which unit is better.
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Catt
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California - SF Bay Area
May 2002
time: 21:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray_Lensman
The only thing that is still confusing, is how does the game actually know that it has to skip to a Pikeman, when it can't actually upgrade to a Numidian Merc, if it's not the Carthagians. |
There is a path that goes from spear -> NM -> pike -> musket -> swiss mercenary -> musketeer -> rifleman. You trace the path simply by checking out each unit's editor page and seeing what it upgrades to (and following the chain).
The "hard-coded" part is that, when checking on available upgrades, the game searches the entire upgrade path and makes available the unit that is highest up the chain for which the civ in question (1) has discovered any prerequisite technology; (2) possesses any required resources; and (3) is identified in the "available to" box displayed in the editor.
The same path works for all civs. Examples:
You're Carthage and you discover Bronze Working -- the NM becomes available (not the spear). The next unit in the upgrade path that is available to Carthage is the Muketman, for which Gunpowder and Saltpeter are required.
You're America and you discover Bronze Working -- the spearman becomes available. The next unit in the upgrade path available to America is the Pike, requiring Feudalism and Iron. The next available to America is the musket ad then the rifle.
You're the Dutch and you discover Bronze Working -- the spearman becomes available. The next unit in the upgrade path available to the Dutch is the Swiss Mercenary which requires Feudalism and Iron (next would be rifleman).
You're the French and you discover Bronze Working -- the spearman becoes available. The next unit in the upgrade path available to the French is the Pikeman which requires Feudalism and Iron (next would be Musketeer and then Rifleman).
quote:
Since it seems to be hard coded to skip over, and then what to skip to. It would present a limitation to User designed scenarios that the user is trying to design his own UUs for his own specific Civs, in that the user could not change the hard coded upgrade.
hmmm... |
Once you understand the concept, it shouldn't present any problems in modding -- just inserting the UU into the right place in the upgrade path and marking the appropriate "available to" boxes would do the trick.
For example, let's say I wanted to create Catt's Civ with a UU called Catt's Guard that replaced the Pikeman with a 1/4/1 unit. I would make the Pikeman upgrade to the Catt's Guard unit, make the Catt's Guard unit upgrade to the Swiss Mercenary (i.e., just inserting my unit in the pre-existing upgrade path), make sure that the Catt's Guard unit is available only to Catt's Civ and make sure the Pikeman is not available to Catt's Civ. Playing as Catt's Civ, if I tried to upgrade my spearman the game would check the upgrade path, skip Pike's since they're not available to my civ, and determine whether I had the prerequisites for the Catt's Guard unit. If I later wanted to upgrade my Catt's Guard unit, the game would next hit Musket on the upgrade path and check for prerequisites. The next attempted upgrade would take me all the way up to Rifleman since the game skip's the Swiss Merc and the Musketeer since they're not available to my civ.
The "search up the path" concept described above and the "available to" box that Solomwi references is the key to your misunderstanding, I think.
Catt 
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14-07-2004 09:57
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