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Odin is offline Odin
Prince
Biology Nerd at Minnesota State University Moorhead
Sep 2000
time: 23:35
  Old Post 17-07-2004 03:40
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A socialist alternative to a vcommand economy Inflate your Upload Space

Keep the free market, but replace Corporations with Co-ops; the employees should control the capital. My idea is similar to the economic system in Kim Stanley Robinson's novel Blue Mars

JimmyCracksCorn is offline JimmyCracksCorn
Settler
Macedonia - Sovereign country north of Greece.
Dec 2002
time: 05:35
  Old Post 17-07-2004 03:41
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Re: A socialist alternative to a vcommand economy Increase Your PM Length

quote:
Originally posted by Odin
Keep the free market, but replace Corporations with Co-ops; the employees should control the capital. My idea is similar to the economic system in Kim Stanley Robinson's novel Blue Mars


Who would force companies to adopt this system?

Odin is offline Odin
Prince
Biology Nerd at Minnesota State University Moorhead
Sep 2000
time: 23:35
  Old Post 17-07-2004 03:49
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Re: Re: A socialist alternative to a vcommand economy Remove this text

quote:
Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn


Who would force companies to adopt this system?


Laws, bribing the management and a lot of social pressure. It will be implemented slowly, so there is time for Co-ops to take over if the companies decide to leave.

Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:35
  Old Post 17-07-2004 04:22
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Not going to work, more about that tomorrow.

Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:35
  Old Post 17-07-2004 04:25
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Well, to be honest, not "not going to work" at all, but more like, we'll have to abandon welfare paychecks completely. ( Which I am for, btw, as long as a job alternative is given )

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
Settler
Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:35
  Old Post 17-07-2004 04:28 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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Money power makes that solution highly unlikely.

Odin is offline Odin
Prince
Biology Nerd at Minnesota State University Moorhead
Sep 2000
time: 23:35
  Old Post 17-07-2004 04:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious
Money power makes that solution highly unlikely.


Money Power? If you are taling about investors, they won't be needed, My system uses instead a special bank loan for company startup.

JohnT is offline JohnT

Emperor
Capitalist
Mar 1999
time: 00:35
  Old Post 17-07-2004 04:36
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Where were you when we discussed the novel??

Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:35
  Old Post 17-07-2004 04:44
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oh ****... tomorrow dudes, tomorrow...

Odin is offline Odin
Prince
Biology Nerd at Minnesota State University Moorhead
Sep 2000
time: 23:35
  Old Post 17-07-2004 04:50
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnT
Where were you when we discussed the novel??


I did post in that thread (and got bashed for spoiling the ending after someone bashed Sax's ethics ).

Whoha is offline Whoha
King
The TOC is supposed to be classified guys...
Dec 2001
time: 23:35
  Old Post 17-07-2004 05:19
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co-ops and not for profit deallys have their own set of problems though.

The Andy-Man is offline The Andy-Man
Prince
Tory Party of 'Poly
Jul 2001
time: 05:35
  Old Post 17-07-2004 06:00
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co-ops already exist in the buisness world. A board of directors makes decisions collectivley, influenced by shareholders, and most staff in BIG companies get share pakages. Everyone involved can have a say if they wish.

JohnT is offline JohnT

Emperor
Capitalist
Mar 1999
time: 00:35
  Old Post 17-07-2004 06:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Odin


I did post in that thread (and got bashed for spoiling the ending after someone bashed Sax's ethics ).


OK.

Odin is offline Odin
Prince
Biology Nerd at Minnesota State University Moorhead
Sep 2000
time: 23:35
  Old Post 17-07-2004 06:08
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quote:
Originally posted by The Andy-Man
co-ops already exist in the buisness world. A board of directors makes decisions collectivley, influenced by shareholders, and most staff in BIG companies get share pakages. Everyone involved can have a say if they wish.


I want the employees having complete control of the Board of Directors, one vote per employee.

The Andy-Man is offline The Andy-Man
Prince
Tory Party of 'Poly
Jul 2001
time: 05:35
  Old Post 17-07-2004 06:11
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would be very inefficiant, having all those 'elections' for proposals.

Besides, Shareholder pressure could potentially be immense, they just rarley use it.

Harry Tuttle is offline Harry Tuttle

Prince
of the Hoople Heads
Mar 2003
time: 00:35
  Old Post 17-07-2004 06:12
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Got spare money?

What's to stop employees from voting for the manager who will gurantee all the profits get paid out in salaries? Where's the reinvestment?

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:35
  Old Post 17-07-2004 06:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Odin
Keep the free market, but replace Corporations with Co-ops; the employees should control the capital. My idea is similar to the economic system in Kim Stanley Robinson's novel Blue Mars


Been tried.

Odin is offline Odin
Prince
Biology Nerd at Minnesota State University Moorhead
Sep 2000
time: 23:35
  Old Post 17-07-2004 06:17
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Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote:
Originally posted by The Andy-Man
would be very inefficiant, having all those 'elections' for proposals.

Besides, Shareholder pressure could potentially be immense, they just rarley use it.


No, no, no. They elect the board of directors and the BoD makes the decisions, basicaly the company is a republic.

Odin is offline Odin
Prince
Biology Nerd at Minnesota State University Moorhead
Sep 2000
time: 23:35
  Old Post 17-07-2004 06:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Harry Tuttle
What's to stop employees from voting for the manager who will gurantee all the profits get paid out in salaries? Where's the reinvestment?


Bad decisions = company goes bankrupt and the employees are looking for a new job.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:35
  Old Post 17-07-2004 06:20
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Enter the AD-FREE zone

Bad decisions = likely.

OzzyKP is offline OzzyKP
King
Rockville, MD
Oct 1999
time: 00:35
  Old Post 17-07-2004 06:42 Visit OzzyKP's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Odin
No, no, no. They elect the board of directors and the BoD makes the decisions, basicaly the company is a republic.


That's how non-profits are run. Its how my group is run.

It seems workable. I dunno how competitive this model would be with standard corporations, but if they were all this way... its possible.

Harry Tuttle is offline Harry Tuttle

Prince
of the Hoople Heads
Mar 2003
time: 00:35
  Old Post 17-07-2004 07:00
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Got spare money?

Well, it could be a sound policy, if only the employees, from the lower level to the top managers had enough skill to pick the best people to man the board.

Most companies have a pyramid structure with the lower level employees outnumbering the managers. I could very easily see the dock workers voting for the guy who will raise pensions and overtime rather than voting for the guy who will have the where with all to point the company in more profitable directions.

So basically, in this structure, there could very well be huge inefficiences that lead to stagnant growth.

I'm sorry, but giving everyone the vote in a corporation probably would not be very advantageous. I could see the larger population of the inexperienced and undereducated making poor decisions as to the future of the company. Then again, if the company is of the professional kind, (ie. a law firm, accounting firm) with smart, highly educated, and experienced employees then it might work.

Not to knock the blue collar workers, but the guys in the plant placing the sprockets on the cogs may not know enough about the business to make a decision from where they are.

Of course I've seen some very rich people who own stock make horrible decisions, because they're dumb.

If this system were to work the voters in the company would have to know what's best and what works and be able to place the right people in the right positions. Like making the guy who's been the dock worker, then salesman, and then sales manager, working his way up the ladder by his wits, the new Chairman of the Board.

A sense of the business really has to be ingrained in the voters for this to work out.

Evil Knevil is offline Evil Knevil
Prince
St Andrews, Scotland.
Dec 1999
time: 05:35
  Old Post 17-07-2004 07:12 Visit Evil Knevil's homepage!
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Bah, what does the proletariat need with miserable bourgeosis specialists? We, the workers, control the means of production.

Sl'avsa ot'echestvo n'ashe svob'odnoye,
Dr'oojbi nar'odov nady'ojni opl'ot

I'm drunk.

OzzyKP is offline OzzyKP
King
Rockville, MD
Oct 1999
time: 00:35
  Old Post 17-07-2004 07:28 Visit OzzyKP's homepage!
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Got spare money?

quote:
Originally posted by Harry Tuttle
Well, it could be a sound policy, if only the employees, from the lower level to the top managers had enough skill to pick the best people to man the board.

Most companies have a pyramid structure with the lower level employees outnumbering the managers. I could very easily see the dock workers voting for the guy who will raise pensions and overtime rather than voting for the guy who will have the where with all to point the company in more profitable directions.

So basically, in this structure, there could very well be huge inefficiences that lead to stagnant growth.

I'm sorry, but giving everyone the vote in a corporation probably would not be very advantageous. I could see the larger population of the inexperienced and undereducated making poor decisions as to the future of the company. Then again, if the company is of the professional kind, (ie. a law firm, accounting firm) with smart, highly educated, and experienced employees then it might work.

Not to knock the blue collar workers, but the guys in the plant placing the sprockets on the cogs may not know enough about the business to make a decision from where they are.

Of course I've seen some very rich people who own stock make horrible decisions, because they're dumb.

If this system were to work the voters in the company would have to know what's best and what works and be able to place the right people in the right positions. Like making the guy who's been the dock worker, then salesman, and then sales manager, working his way up the ladder by his wits, the new Chairman of the Board.

A sense of the business really has to be ingrained in the voters for this to work out.


Sounds a lot like our system of government.

quote:
I could very easily see the dock workers voting for the guy who will raise pensions and overtime rather than voting for the guy who will have the where with all to point the company in more profitable directions.


DEFINITELY sounds like our system of government.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
Settler
Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:35
  Old Post 17-07-2004 07:36 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Odin


Money Power? If you are taling about investors, they won't be needed, My system uses instead a special bank loan for company startup.


Money has it's own power. The power to influence people. Money power will not allow an exploitive system to peacefully go to a nonexploitive system.

Odin is offline Odin
Prince
Biology Nerd at Minnesota State University Moorhead
Sep 2000
time: 23:35
  Old Post 17-07-2004 07:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious


Money has it's own power. The power to influence people. Money power will not allow an exploitive system to peacefully go to a nonexploitive system.


You can't make a transition to a non-exploitive system overnight it will take a LOOOOOOOOONG time. Besides, I don't think Traditional Communism works unless technology is so advanced that nothing has monetary value because it is so easily available. This is an easy first step that I think most Americans will tolerate.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
Settler
Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:35
  Old Post 17-07-2004 07:51 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Odin
You can't make a transition to a non-exploitive system overnight it will take a LOOOOOOOOONG time.


How does it happen though. You can't just say that it will take a long time. Even if it takes a long time you still have to have a way that it will happen.

JohnT is offline JohnT

Emperor
Capitalist
Mar 1999
time: 00:35
  Old Post 17-07-2004 08:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Odin


You can't make a transition to a non-exploitive system overnight it will take a LOOOOOOOOONG time. Besides, I don't think Traditional Communism works unless technology is so advanced that nothing has monetary value because it is so easily available. This is an easy first step that I think most Americans will tolerate.


From Kim Stanley Roberts to Iain M. Banks in 22 posts... economics through science fiction!

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:35
  Old Post 17-07-2004 08:38
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quote:
DEFINITELY sounds like our system of government.


That's the point isn't it? Our system is terribly inefficient, but we say, why not, we are dealing with social stuff. We generally want our economics to be efficient, however.

Harry Tuttle is offline Harry Tuttle

Prince
of the Hoople Heads
Mar 2003
time: 00:35
  Old Post 17-07-2004 09:29
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Tired of ads?

Problem is, as with any democractic vote, the best people don't always get picked. We can only WISH everyone would vote for the absolute best person for the job.

When working at a company I'd rather rely on the people who have been chosen for the definite reason they know how things should run, if only for the express reason I want to keep getting paid. At least in a business world the idea of what is an absolute is a bit more defined than, say, with real life social issues.

 
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