21-10-2000 08:33									#1
	Is this dirty or should i expect this in a game? Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I have been in games where people build on my specials, which almost defeats the purpose of looking for the four special patern unless they are in the water. Is this considered fair play? I find it appalling when someone lands on my gold with a pike and god only knows what else and you can't remove them.

And Ming, dont' give me one of your wailing laughs please

It can really ruin a great city. Anyways, obviously there are ways to combat this but still, gr.......

I guess i should look for other peoples specials, no wonder i always build on mine

	21-10-2000 08:35									#2
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It's a provocative act. To say the least. Tell 'em to bugger off or else.

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	21-10-2000 08:43									#3
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Hm. Well i dont' have a mike on my puter maybe i could yell real loud

	21-10-2000 09:25									#4
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If they know you're there, it's provocative. You're entitled to prepare for war.

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	21-10-2000 10:11									#5
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yeah, sounds like they wanna go to war to me. now if they are your ally, then that is certainly most intolerable! but still a reason to war

	21-10-2000 14:05									#6
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Sounds like war.

	21-10-2000 15:50									#7
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HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!

Whiner

Yes, I will build on your Gold (or any other special) if you leave it unguarded. It's a good way to screw people that take advantages of four or three patterns.

And yes, you can take it as an act of war... Because frankly, that's exactly what it is!

HA HA HA HA HA!

	21-10-2000 16:51									#8
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Just because the AI is too dumb to do this doesn't make it wrong. You'll find some players who are extremely aggressive; if that style bothers you, don't play those people. You may be able to find a group who prefers a nice peaceful game. My opinion: MP games, especially duels, are zero-sum games. Weakening your opponent's civ can be just as effective as strengthening your own. The ideal situation is where both happen at once: you steal the gold from your opponent's city so your own city can use it.

Expect human opponents to do things the AI never dreamed of. Defense is very important in MP; many times the best defense is a good offense .

	21-10-2000 19:20									#9
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Through either threat or force they must be moved. Not doing so is a sign of weakness.


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	21-10-2000 20:33									#10
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I'm a gold hungry bastard... I always leave my specials guarded well if they're near the coast or into enemy territory, some of them I just build right on top of especially gold and iron...

	22-10-2000 09:05									#11
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LOL whiner eh? I was just curious as to what everyone thought. I agree that it is a great way to aggravate you opponent as well as steal his resources even if you just plant a cat and pike on the gold.

I shall have to add this to my repitoire then

	22-10-2000 01:46									#12
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Some seem to pay more attention to what you are doing than what they are doing!! I don't know if such a thing is really a low blow in the sense of being unprincipled, but it is irritating, as is building cities very close to your own.
Did they trade maps with you before doing so, or were they just nosing around? If so quit trading maps with them... hehe

I would rather go over when there is a good possibility of taking a city before I would go over and harrass it.

Once someone made trade routes from many if not most of his larger cities with two of mine. They were about size 8 and developed a bit, but I starved em down and rushed settlers in combination, selling off the stuff inside, and re homing the settlers to other cities till the 2 cities being traded with were disbanded. Then rebuilt them and used the extra settlers to get them up over size 3 and WLPD back into shape.
This was costly to me but most satisfying to hear the response when he realized most of his trade routes vanished!

	22-10-2000 02:35									#13
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Standard Operating Procedure.

	22-10-2000 04:03									#14
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If i can build a city withing 2 squares of someones capital, I'll do it every time. If it's gold, that's the icing on the cake. If it's their wonder city, you can really screw with their heads. And if you get to espionage, you can really trash their capital, and the spy will usually return to the city for more fun the next turn. I've made people move their capitals with this type of annoying behaviour.

Also another reason why it's not critical to have your capital be a four special city. I'll build on the special so I don't have to worrry about it.

RAH

	22-10-2000 06:40									#15
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Sounds fair to me.

	22-10-2000 14:18									#16
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Merc, the behavior you describe is shameful...
and I rarely intentionally build on someone else's specials unless I can get away with it. I know the feeling of building a beautiful city only to have parasites build nearby stealing resources - so next time, be the parasite

	23-10-2000 09:51									#17
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Crusty - That idea of killing your city to eliminate the opponents trading routes is quite inventive. It takes some nerve to do something like that. So, I confer upon you the author of a new Civ strategy: "disestablishmentarianism"...

On the other hand, it might be called "cuttingoffyournosetospiteyourface:

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<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by cavebear (edited October 22, 2000).]</font>

	22-10-2000 23:51									#18
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This is why catapults were invented. The trick is to get mathematics while building a couple vet phalanxes, then a couple vet vatapults, and moving next to the mountain just before the end of your turn before he can react. Won't always work, but sometimes it does. Especially if the fool doesn't realize you have a city near by. But I have to agree that it's probably cheaper to just stick a couple defensive units on it if it's vulnerable, or do enough patrolling to avoid the intrusion.

Once RAH's ally intentionally built on his specials. Boy was he pissed. Couple turns later the poor fool was asking me, the leader of the other power block, if he could ally with us instead.

	23-10-2000 01:49									#19
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Since when did you have to be fair to others? A villain will make the game interesting for everyone....

	23-10-2000 22:49									#20
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Yeah, I was Pissed. Real Pissed. Didn't expect that from an ally. If it had not been an ally, he never would have gotten the city down and established. Since then I have gotten a little more paranoid. I even trashed some dips (from a civ that I had a tech stealing treaty with) that got too close to one of my cities that was near completing a wonder. While my opponent was naturally upset, I explained the situation and he understood. (understood meaning didn't go into a suicidial assualt against my civ)

And yes, after that first experience, I did ask to realign with the other team. My ally wasn't worthy anymore.

That's why I love no alliance games, every treaty must be held suspect. You make peace and hope it will buy you a few critical turns to build up a defense or offense. Or some treaties that are mutually beneficial and are honored for a considerable time. But there are only a small handful of players that I will trust for that type of treaty.

I love trading maps with people with the "only if you don't trade maps with someone else clause" only to find out later that your map was sold as a commodity to every other player.

The little treacheries are what makes MP civ the great game that it is. AI backstabbing was expected and an annoyance at best, but when a human player does it, depending on the timing, could prove fatal.

RAH

	26-10-2000 01:49									#21
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This is a strategy game, right? Sounds fair to me.

	26-10-2000 02:11									#22
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I just have never done this in a game before. Like i said , i will add it to my repetoire

Let us all unite and build on other peoples specials.

	26-10-2000 04:45									#23
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Expect it if you expect war, Mercantile.
It's an open declaration of war.
Building on a mountain in your city squares is pretty good tactic.

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	27-10-2000 09:33									#24
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An "open declaration of War"...

You bet. I would never do it to an ally, and everybody else is fair game

I always love how they spend the next few hundred years wasting resources to kill the encroaching city. When you compare their cost vs the cost of just a settler and some vet defensive unit, it's a great trade off!
Even if they eventually do get you (and most times they can't)... it's still a pleasure watching them sweat!

	28-10-2000 06:43									#25
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I always enjoy your insights, Ming.
There is nothing that retards the advancement of a civilization like a prolonged war.

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