18-07-2004 23:15									#1
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There have been some talking going on about protectionist tarrifs arising in cities now that we are getting connected. I would assume if one city goes this direction, all will have to. This can help/hurt all of us, and probably varies from session to session which.

Session 2 will be a good indication of the power of this sort of protectionism on the market. The Asylum is a completely protected market for it's landholders in Session 2, while the other two cities are 'free' trade (if tarriffs are not enacted before then). This is a 'natural' protectionism which will likely be gone by Session 3 when we are connected to the rest of the empire by roads.

To deal with the market on an empire-wide basis, perhaps we should form a guild to help set (or offset) trading regulations set by cities.

Functions of the Guild would be to set up commodity trade between members (within a city or not), protection of member's interests on an empire-wide basis, and influencing city decisions to implement/retract tarriffs or embargoes.

Simply put, this guild would form to make sure that city governments are not soley responsible for dictating our rights as traders.

Members: (membership open to all landholders)

Uber KruX
GhengisFarb
Aidun
General Locus
Aeson
TORARADICAL
=OttomusCeasar=
Esoteric

Last edited by Aeson on 19-07-2004 at 22:35

	18-07-2004 23:25									#2
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I don't see what's wrong with city's implementing small tariffs. If a city plans to grow its population to be a far more profitable market than others and wishes to charge a small tariff to support it for doing so why is that wrong?

Why should a few outsiders impose their will on the citystates? If Feudality builds some suburbs and generates a profitable mulitmarket economy why should The Asylum dictate its market rules?

And should this be attempted, what's to say X or Feudality simply ignore you and close off all trade with the other cities (ie, imposing a 100% tariff).

Last edited by GhengisFarb on 18-07-2004 at 23:31

	18-07-2004 23:59									#3
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb I don't see what's wrong with city's implementing small tariffs. If a city plans to grow its population to be a far more profitable market than others and wishes to charge a small tariff to support it for doing so why is that wrong?

You'll notice I didn't say we would specifically support or oppose tarriffs, just that merchants could band together to make sure that city governments aren't the only deciding factor in what is deemed reasonable.

There are empire-wide trading concerns that for some may supercede city-wide trading concerns. This would be a forum to express those views and find consensus on a larger scale about how the market should be run.

quote: Why should a few outsiders impose their will on the citystates? If Feudality builds some suburbs and generates a profitable mulitmarket economy why should The Asylum dictate its market rules?

You seem to view this as a closed guild. It's open to everyone.

quote: And should this be attempted, what's to say X or Feudality simply ignore you and close off all trade with the other cities (ie, imposing a 100% tariff).

Good example of what the Guild would be trying to avoid. Ideally everyone from every city would be active in the guild, and a larger consensus about what is reasonable will be achieved. That way a few hardliners in a city couldn't close it off for everyone else as easily. They would be facing an empire-wide opposition (in and out of their city(s)) instead of just from in their city.

The Merchants Guild could be a powerful force in keeping a spiral effect of tarriffs from forming and leading us to a completely closed market.

As an example, the 10% tarriff proposed in X will likely lead to the other cities following suit. You may feel your market is the most powerful, and it might be, but what happens when The Asylum and/or Feudality then decides to go with a 100% tarriff so the the members there can sell off only 1 good each and split the entire income, while dumping all the spare goods in X? What happens when the first Settler decides to grab 3 tiles in X's radius, using those tiles to dump tarriff free goods into X while closing off their market completely? To protect yourself X probably now has to up the tarriff rate.

The end result is going to be all cities at 100% tarriffs (and even tarriffs against certain landholders in a city) if policy is concerned only with city market health, and there is no representation of empire-wide market health. By having that empire-wide concern represented, we won't be eliminating city concerns, but helping offset them when they would be detrimental to traders as a whole.

	19-07-2004 00:10									#4
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I'll join this guild.

	19-07-2004 00:15									#5
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I'll join this guild, but I'm staunchly citySTATES RIGHTS in my political leanings.

	19-07-2004 00:20									#6
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Yah sure, Liberal.

As I said, the actual policy of the guild would be determined by the membership. It could even be used to help uphold citySTATES RIGHTS...

	19-07-2004 00:23									#7
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I thought States Rights people were ultra Conservative.

	19-07-2004 00:25									#8
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I'll join this guild to and I hang towards Ghengis's idea as long as the nation's interests aren't harmed too much.

Aidun

	19-07-2004 00:32									#9
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Sign me up! I wish to join!

	19-07-2004 00:45									#10
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I would also like to state that I will be alongside Ghengis in this guild. I am joining to make sure this guild does not utterly destroy the city's ability to determine prices, not the other way around.

	19-07-2004 02:00									#11
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is there a maximum of players that can be involved in the guild? Or is this guild only open to certain players?

Aidun

	19-07-2004 02:29									#12
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I would join. I may not add much, but know that what I do add will have been very much thought oot.

	19-07-2004 08:49									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Aidun is there a maximum of players that can be involved in the guild? Or is this guild only open to certain players?

I suppose if the membership wanted to restrict future membership it could be voted on. Excluding anyone would be undermining the purpose though. You can't come to an empire-wide consensus on market issues without input empire-wide. The smaller the membership the less influence the guild could have.

-----------

I do find it a little weird that so many see tarriffs as a good thing. Obviously GF gains leaps and bounds as the only landholder in more than one city... the rest of us are facing up to a 20% disadvantage in comparison to him if the tarriffs are enacted. (and that 20% could skyrocket in short order)

Once there are multiple players with shared tiles it makes more sense to support. Before then it seems to be counter-intuitive for the vast majority of the players.

	19-07-2004 09:34									#14
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I'll join this guild as well, if only to provide another opportunity to spam.

As I see it, from the standpoint of a landowner in the City of X, I stand to make a bit of a profit by having the city solicit a tariff. A small one, of course, so that business will still come our way. No harm, no foul.

Though, looking at Aeson's statements, we probably do need to enact some sort of restrictions on a few items to prevent exploitation, and to keep the overall game fun.

First, there should be a limit to how high a city may set a tariff. 10-20% seems reasonable enough. Granted, this takes away from the rights of the city, but it's only fair for everyone else in the nation. And, at least I know I'd be less inclined to participate should my potential profits be taken away by excessive tariffs that are everywhere else in the nation, should Aeson's predicted scenarios play out.

Second, there should be some sort of restriction on tiles that are in two city radii. When this phenonom occurs, one person stands to profit greatly, especially since that very valuable double-city tile is acquirable by normal means. I'd propose either doubling the purchase price (as well as making them unavailable as first-time picks) to properly account for the doubled influence, or outright simply deciding that one tile belongs to one city, period.

That ends my daily rant.

	19-07-2004 09:44									#15
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I think, Aeson that the people of city of X fear that those of us in Futility will come over and saturate their market, driving prices down... it's no surprise that the city of Lepers... or whatever it's called now... it's no surprise that all of their citizens are relatively wealthy... an unsaturated market...

	19-07-2004 12:55									#16
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quote: it's no surprise that all of their citizens are relatively wealthy... an unsaturated market...

For the moment

I would join this guild, too, it looks like it is becoming more and more of a 'National Business Institute' or something- and as all of us would really want to join just in the interest of protecting our business rights and having a say in an 'empire-wide' organization, so will I.

But I am not going to be very active, as I will be busy building a vault for all my ill-gotten gains, and using it to fund the nation's first Lending Trader and Sundry Stonework business. I would call it a bank but we don't know what that means. Anyways- as soon as I figure out how, I am going to start providing loans for new business owners and anyone who needs some fast investment capitol.

	19-07-2004 16:18									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Octavian X First, there should be a limit to how high a city may set a tariff. 10-20% seems reasonable enough. Granted, this takes away from the rights of the city, but it's only fair for everyone else in the nation. And, at least I know I'd be less inclined to participate should my potential profits be taken away by excessive tariffs that are everywhere else in the nation, should Aeson's predicted scenarios play out.

I don't see that as necessary, if a city charges too high of a tariff no one will trade there as it would be unprofitable. If a city is so profitable that traders are willing to pay a high tariff to trade there, well kudos to the well management of that city.

quote: Originally posted by Octavian X Second, there should be some sort of restriction on tiles that are in two city radii. When this phenonom occurs, one person stands to profit greatly, especially since that very valuable double-city tile is acquirable by normal means. I'd propose either doubling the purchase price (as well as making them unavailable as first-time picks) to properly account for the doubled influence, or outright simply deciding that one tile belongs to one city, period.

I don't this as necessary either. Since they are more versatile, I believe the Players will bid more and drive the prices of these tiles up in auction on their own.

	19-07-2004 17:08									#18
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The question is: how much government intervention in the market do we want? Ghenghis is a typical liberal as I am accustomed to: no or little intervention.

Aeson is of more of the interventionist side. Opposed to the liberal laissez-faire idea.

Personally I think that we should leave the market alone and see how things develop. If things go out of hand, we can always intervene. You have to watch out with intervention: when you regulate it too much you take away the creativity. Also the market is very well able to regulate itself through the competition between the cities. Perhaps competition is now still small because there is only a road between Feudality and X, soon there will be competition between X and Green city as well.

Aidun

	19-07-2004 17:18									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Aidun The question is: how much government intervention in the market do we want? Ghenghis is a typical liberal as I am accustomed to: no or little intervention.

In the US its the exact opposite. Conservatives are opposed to government intervention and want it to stay out of everything whereas Liberals are trying to make more and more government and social programs and champion government intervention.

	19-07-2004 18:11									#20
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Raise Taxes!!! SPEND! SPEND! SPEND!!!!!

....well at least that makes more sense then what the conservatives do:

Lower Taxes!!! SPEND! SPEND! SPEND!!!

	19-07-2004 18:14									#21
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I would like to sign up for this guild.

	27-07-2004 10:08									#22
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Now that there are a few members of this Guild of Merchants (whatever those may be) what are our next steps? Is there some form of incorporation or corporealization that we need to perform to get some more spam er...dialogue going? Is their some function to this Guild? Do we do anything?

Shouldn't we at least be holding meetings and banquets and stuff like that where we can get liquored up and go golfing?
...or even hunting- I have a nice stretch of prime hunting grounds around my estate, and the dang wild beasties are so friendly you can walk right up and snap their little necks.