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Heresson
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of frogs
Jun 2000
time: 06:17
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Well. just to inform that while I need (from several months...) very little to finish Heraclius, I'm working over Muslim-playable version of it. It will use the same artwork mostly, but will have all the files separate.
So, generally, it'll be a scenario about the rise of Muslim empire, from 622 to something like 750: Muhammad, the first 4 caliphs, and the Umayyad dinasty.
When I finish it, and it's not all that much work, I'll probably do a Persian-playable version of Heraclius, about Chosroes Parviz. I count on once-promessed help of Stefan...
The differenc between Heraclius and the Muhammad scn will be big, as in Heraclius You defend, while in Muhammad You conquer. My main problem right now is up till now, after several days of work, the scn is playable already, but to conquer, You need to use just one type of unit actually, and it's a bit boring. Siege engines later may be nice, but i need something to make cavalry worth using, except for camels. Perhaps i;ll give it ignore-city-walls flag.
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Stefan Härtel
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Eddie's best friend
Jul 1999
time: 06:17
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The mascot of the heavy metal band Iron Maiden; this guy.
quote:
Any suggestions for the task?
I'm not going to spend too much time over it. |
An initial idea would be to rename Persian factories or manufactory plants into "Christian communities". Persian Christians were quite hard-labouring, which is partly due to laws of that time. Many were treated almost like slaves in Persia. I suggest you email me at shaertel2000@yahoo.NOSPAM.co.uk (without the NOSPAM bit) so we can talk about this in detail.
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perhaps You can suggest some more Persian wonders except for Persepolis and Ctesiphon. |
The most important would be Takht-e-Soleiman, where the biggest and most important Persian temple at that time was. Some other ideas would be Naqsh-e-Rostam, Behistun and others like Persian heritage or Mazdak's teachings.
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And tell me where the heck the Dastagird or whatever is located. |
Dastagerd is a bit north of Ctesiphon (between 1-3 tiles, depending on the size of your map).
Last edited by Stefan Härtel on 20-07-2004 at 15:27
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Valuk
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Acres Wild
Oct 2002
time: 05:17
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Looking forward to it. Keep up the good work!
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Exile
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of the Benighted Realms
Sep 2000
time: 23:17
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Heresson, one of your comments above piqued my attention and triggered a memory of something read recently in the Columbia World History;
"For all of the hypothetical 'exhaustion' of Byzantium and Persia, or the 'fanaticism' of the Arabs, it remains difficult to explain the Muslim blitzkreig, and particularly the rapid capitulation of such formidable fortress cities as Alexandria, Damascus, or Ctesiphon to small, poorly-equiped Arab detachments, untrained in siege warfare, and facing sophisticated fortifications and highly skilled professional armies, unless we postulate some degree of fifth-column activity on the part of disaffected native religious minorities, such as the Jews, and particularly the Monophysites, whom Justinian's legislation had reduced to second-class citizenship."
And yet, I have difficulty believing that religious minority communities within the Byzantine empire could have subverted the defenses, especially when one considers carefully the strengths of Heraclius' armies and the long heritage of imperial occupation of Syria, Egypt, Palestine, and north Africa. And then there is this, more pithy analysis from an obscure, yet intrigueing work of fiction;
"There is an absolute mystery covering all the early Islamic expansion and military conquest. There is no possible way these things could have happened. Circumstances sometimes put forward to explain these happenings are in fact later circumstances created by these same happenings. The clear truth is that the desert Arabs were absolutely inferior to all their neighbors in wealth, numbers, technology, health, ability, intellect, location, ambition, sophistication, weaponry, organization, transportation and experience in warfare. Their victories could not have been won in reality. It had to be a subjective religious rapture to make it seem to the Arabs that they were conquering. But how was the exterior world and its peoples conned into authenticating these subjective experiences of the miserable Arabs? Moreover, Islam was not then a rapture religion--it did not become so until two centuries later. Nor was Islam then a militant religion--it became so only after the completion of those astonishing, early world-shaking conquests."
These comments about the appearance of the Arabs on the international scene are only a sample of what I've seen on this subject. It remains mysterious to me, and, apparently, to others as well.
Last edited by Exile on 19-09-2004 at 08:04
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Heresson
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of frogs
Jun 2000
time: 06:17
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quote:
[SIZE=1]
And yet, I have difficulty believing that religious minority communities within the Byzantine empire could have subverted the defenses, especially when one considers carefully the strengths of Heraclius' armies and the long heritage of imperial occupation of Syria, Egypt, Palestine, and north Africa.
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There are several factors that have to be taken into consideration.
First of all, Heraclius himself.
He almost didn't try to defend Syria, to the extent that Muslim tradition made a Muslim out of Him. It was because of his age, and because of his commonly criticised marriage with his niece, Martina.
He died soon. That's a case when it comes to Syria.
When it comes to Egypt, things are even more complicated. As Heraclius died, the state was in complete chaos, and when Arabs came and defeated Romans under Babylon fortress, it agreed on a peace signed by orthodox patriarch Kyros, which gave entire Egypt into Arab hands. Worth saying that Kyros, as melkite patriarch, was the chief of secular administration too. He was accused of treachery. It is assumed that He thought He would keep his position in Egypt after accepting Muslim dominance - which would make Him a separate ruler of Egypt, while this dominance turned into a direct rule immediatelly
Africa defended well for a long time; if I remember it well, the final fall of it was due to a civil war, when a Roman African fleet protecting the cities moved east to participate in it, and Arabs took the chance.
WHat might have influenced Heraclius' decision of abandoning Syria was perhaps that his politics of monotheletism didn't gain a wider acceptance, that the Roman forces were defeated several times, and his brother, Theodor, has died during one of the battles;
what was the most important was that Banu Ghassan Kingdom was destroyed. It is fact of a great significance.
It's been a great Arab kingdom with center in Hawran I think, it was - like Banu Lakhm kingdom when it comes to Persia - a center of Arabic culture, and it was on a much higher level of civilisation than early Muslim. They were Christian too. The fall of this kingdom made Syria opened for Muslim invasion, just like the troubles of Lakhm kingdom invited Muslims into Mesopotamia.
The army that fighted the early Muslim invasions in Syria
was largely Christian Arab. I've read they simply weren't paid, so they abandoned Romans and joined Muslim army (not changing their denomination, though)
I don't understand this tuff with rapture religion?
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Nor was Islam then a militant religion--it became so only after the completion of those astonishing, early world-shaking conquests."
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Oh yes it was
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Valuk
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Acres Wild
Oct 2002
time: 05:17
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Playtesting, ye say...
I am not the best Civ2 player ever[in fact, I'm the very opposite], but I'm fanatical when it comes to byzantine history and historical accuracy in scenarios- these two facts have logically turned me into a worshipper of Heresson's immaculately crafted scenarios, so, if there's any action to participate in, I'm there.
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fairline
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of the wing
Sep 2002
time: 05:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Exile
.....These comments about the appearance of the Arabs on the international scene are only a sample of what I've seen on this subject. It remains mysterious to me, and, apparently, to others as well. |
That's a good point - digging out some old source books (and an old Osprey edition LOL), which admittedly date from 1986 when I was studying for history A-level  , there are some indications given as to the state of the Byzantine army at the time of the Muslim conquest. Firstly there is a suggestion that defenses were considerably weakened after the Sassanian invasion of the region some years before. Also, after Maurice's death in 602 and the subsequent struggle between Phocas and Heraclius the army effectively collapsed as a coherrent force and the reforms and restructuring of the army by Heraclius may not have been as effective as history credits them. I think the adoption of the effective Thematic system was a reaction to the Muslim conquests rather than preceeeding them, although I may recall this incorrectly (?).
The smoking gun, however, may have been the degenerating Field/Fixed army system inherited from the Roman Empire. There were apparently five Duces charged with defending Egypt and Tripolitania, each with their own small army which by this time was more loyal to their commander than the concept of the Byzantine Empire. The most effective of these was that of the Thebaid Dux which was not used in the defence of Egypt until the Muslims had reached the Dux's own province; indeed, two Duces didn't contribute to the defence of Egypt at all. Pretty much the same thing happened in Syria: the Byzantine regional armies did not co-ordinate their efforts and as a result the Muslim invaders were able to deal with each one individually. Had the Duces combined their armies the result would undoubtedly have been a resounding victory for the Byzantines, given the qualitative and quantative superiority over the Arab forces you mention.
There is also a hint that the largely Coptic population of Egypt were antagonistic towards the Orthodox Byzantine rule, which can't have helped in securing a successful defence. In fact, didn't the Coptic governor of Alexandria defect to the Muslims IIRC?
Last edited by fairline on 20-09-2004 at 21:58
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beingofone
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U.S.A.
Apr 2003
time: 05:17
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Very interesting period to do a scenario on Heresson.
Curt Sibling may have something on his siege theory.
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beingofone
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U.S.A.
Apr 2003
time: 05:17
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Usually alot of world history text-books or in depth history books have early trade routes.
trade
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beingofone
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U.S.A.
Apr 2003
time: 05:17
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Try the link above
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All times are GMT. The time now is 05:17.
Apolyton Time is 00:17. |
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19-07-2004 01:17
The expansion of Islam has been neglected in scenarios
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