11-05-2005 20:56									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Trifna General Lud: I guess that they put their energy where it counts more. I don't know how much it'd cost to get a sphere with which advantages afterwards. Still, a sphere really is something I want to see

Super Power 2 uses a globe.

	12-05-2005 04:11									#32
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I know... and it doesn't help me to understand what are the motives for not changing. Any disadvantage?

	12-05-2005 13:47									#33
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I'd prefer a globe with a hex map. I guess a cylinder grid world is part of the Civ look and feel.

	12-05-2005 21:59									#34
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Looking and feeling old is not a feature

	13-05-2005 03:35									#35
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the trick in implementing new methods of technology transfer is the game mechanics.

I like the ideas presented in the options that create increasing probablitiy with the increased amount of contact between civs, but as others point out, that is just one variable. It will work for some techs (wheel), but not for others (nuke power - or any tech that is sufficiently complicated compared to the civ attempting to obtain it). Even for the techs that it makes sense for, how would this be modeled? It seems to require a sophisticated game mechanics model of increased diplomacy and trade. Are we getting that in Civ4?

Some techs are concepts which would "spread through a region" as General Ludd suggests (Nationalism, philosophy, democracy). I don't think this is the works...

I like the idea of having a greater possibility of gaining a tech as other neighboring civs discover it, but the lower research cost, I agree, is already a nod towards that.

It's just too hard, apparently, to model something that approximates real life, so we are left with the status quo.

	13-05-2005 05:15									#36
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Contrarily, I don't believe it needs any complex model. A general model can do.

Just a quick example here:
1- More contacts, more "bonus" research points for techs, so easier to research.
2- Idea-based techs (democracy...) pass easily, technical techs (tank, atomic bomb...) hardly.
3- A few factors (political system in place) affect the passage.


That's it. As easy as 1-2-3. Isn't it?

	13-05-2005 09:03									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Trifna Looking and feeling old is not a feature

	13-05-2005 09:16									#38
	Re: Simplicity: As Easy as 1-2-3 Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Trifna Contrarily, I don't believe it needs any complex model. A general model can do. Just a quick example here: 1- More contacts, more "bonus" research points for techs, so easier to research. 2- Idea-based techs (democracy...) pass easily, technical techs (tank, atomic bomb...) hardly. 3- A few factors (political system in place) affect the passage. That's it. As easy as 1-2-3. Isn't it?

What's a contact?
Meeting a new civ for the first time would be one. An embassy would be another. A trade agreement a third... What else? Just three or four types of contacts where most cannot be repeated?

Item 2 on your list makes sense.
I don't understand 3.

So I think my question still stands. If the trade, diplomacy and science models were more complicated which we know they won't be based on Soren's PowerPoint then there would be some texture to work with.

Don't get me wrong, I think the idea is interesting, I just wonder about implementation, that's all.

	14-05-2005 00:40									#39
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Here's my idea:

Every turn, there's a chance that you will learn a tech that someone else knows. This chance is modified by the following:

Is the other civ on the same continent as you?
Does the other civ have cities adjacent to yours?
How far is the other civ from you?
What are your relations with the other civ?
What is current game turn?
How advanced is the tech?

So, for instance, if I'm adjacent to the Romans, who are allied with me, in the year 1960AD and they discovered monarchy and I haven't, I should have a overwhelming chance to discover the tech

On the other hand, if I'm across an ocean from the Mongols who are at war with me is 1000BC, my chances should be nil.

	14-05-2005 09:06									#40
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Mahdimael: Well it seems more complicated in terms of implementation, which would not fit in.


Shogun Gunner:
Item 1: Many types of contact can exist. Trade, treaties, embassies, borders... As long as it fits in one place the screen where we see alliances.
Item 3: Well some factors influence. For exemple, techs might not pass as easily under a totalitarian system.

	14-05-2005 22:03									#41
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I don't think it would be that difficult to implement- codewise, it's just a bunch of "if" statements


Run this at the beginning of your turn
for (every other civ)
{
if (other civ other civ on other continent)
Chance to gain tech - X
if (other civ adjacent)
Chance to gain tech + X
if ...
.
.
.
if (Random number * Chance to gain tech ) = true
gain tech
else don't
}

I don't think it would add that much overhead, and you could implement it so that it only changes when something relevant changes

	15-05-2005 20:44									#42
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd Yeah, I have no hopes for Civ 4. The series is entrenched in antiquated ideas that are a decade old. The series hasn't learned anything from all the other great strategy games that have been made in the mean time - it's just the same old stuff, with very little innovation at all. Hell, they can't even get off the idea of a cylinder grid-world.

Exactly. I don't think Firaxis are that much in need of money, they could try to do something new and great and still make a profit (though not as huge as it would be with a plain-jane rehearsal of the old game).

	15-05-2005 20:56									#43
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Mahdimael:
I never thought that it would be hard to implement the code, but that it would be hard to implement for the players.

Boris:
They don't seem to found of just "rehearsal of the old game". They never did that all that much, and (as they said) went more on 1/3 same, 1/3 ameliorated, 1/3 new.

	15-05-2005 21:28									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Trifna Mahdimael: I never thought that it would be hard to implement the code, but that it would be hard to implement for the players.

Ah, roger. I would think that if they did implement it, you could put it in the diplomacy screen as "tech convergence" or something and rate it from none to extreme.

	21-05-2005 08:00									#45
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Technology diffuses in real life. I really liked the implementation in Crusader Kings where you directed your research in general areas. What you specifically learned in that area was somewhat random, but the more nieghbours had a tech the higher your chances of learning it were. It was quite cool and realistic.

However it may be simply too random for most civ players who like to feel they have more control. And it would not work at all for isolated civs. (More realistic of course but not fun.)

	21-05-2005 23:32									#46
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They also had something like that in SMAC where you could choose where to put most of your research (and with an option to turn it off). AFAIK it was very simplified though. I don't think it considered what techs the other factions had