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barbeerhj
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I have played a few games with the Hittite nation for the first time since I got the new Conquests expansion. Looking at them, I assumed they wern't that special, so I decided not to give them a run.
But, one game, using random for my civ, I was given them. After looking them up in the civilopedia, I was shocked to see their UU. It was a chariot, but one with a 2 attack and 2 defence. I thought to myself, "Sheesh, a horseman availble almost at the same spearman come out."
I then played the game and dominated the AI on monarch level with the Hittite's UU. It was an easy win, the nation next door, the Inca, could not even begine to counter my UU with the normal archer counter-attacks that doom most archer rushes. I was even able to capture a few cities that only had warriors in them.
After consuming the Inca's technology and territory, I set my sights on the Romans. Even they we caught unprepared. I took out their Iron roads with my fast raiding chariots. Capture quite a few workers before they could run back to the city. And destroyed most of their attempts to colonize their surrounding area.
The point is that the Hittite UU is a very powerful and versatile unit. Having an 2 attack rating, it can capture cities and counter-attack archers sent out to engage it. Also, its 2 defence can help it hold its ground against an archer sent to defeat it, much unlike horsemen and your own archers.
But, the main strenght in the UU is it's speed and its availability. You can start making your chariots almost at the start of the game. Since the Hittites are expansionist, you can scout for horse and find "the wheel" technology extremly quickly. Also, it is availible to you almost at the same time archers and spearman are being made. Thus you will have a head start in many cases against the defenders. Also, while it takes 3 technologies to begine making horsemen, it takes only one to start making your UU.
Since it is a "fast" unit, it can survive a lot more battles then a normal archer ever could. Also, this makes it a great pillaging and worker raiding unit.
There are a few cons to this UU. One of which is that it can not move on mountains, volcanoes, marshes, and jungles. Also, it cost 30 shields to make. Much more then an archer, but the same as it would for a horseman.
-Ron
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barbeerhj
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Perhaps so...
But, if you play them right, the other civ won't get the chance to use their Iron to make swordsmans. Unless they either settle a settle a city right on it and fortify it with a mess of archers and spearman.
Also, just getting swordsman does not assure you victory against their UU. A swordman has a 3/2/1, meaning that any counter attack is open to debate on who will be most likely to win.
In addition, getting iron is relatively easy to do. But, defending it and securing it can be very costly and painful to do. Lets assume that you have a mountain 4 tiles way from your city you want to make swordsman from. You make the road and the colony if it's not in your territory. Now you have to defend not only the iron sorce, but the road leading to the mountain with at least 1 or 2 spearman on the road. This will be very costly gold wise and production wise.
If you don't, then the Hittite player is going to simply pillage a section of the road, and you can't repair it until the UU is driven away or destroyed by an archer. This is because the chariot has a 2 attack value, and there is a good possibility that the chariot might win, even more if they are veterans and the player has multiple ones.
Although, you would not likely see this type of strategy from an AI player, or at least I havn't. But I have used this technique on many humans, and they can't support such a large garrison on their iron source and road leading to a city.
Also, one might get lucky and it appears 2 tiles away, but that rarely if ever happens to me 
-ron
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barbeerhj
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Indeed, you are correct
I think, that in these type of problems, you should utilize the UU to what it really did in history: a raider.
In reallity, the Hittites used their chariots as a way to raid the Babylonian empire. They did most of their fighting with infantry armed with iron made weapons.
In fact, I think that the Hittites should have had a scientific trait. This is because they were one of the first societies to use iron-made weapons and be able to cast iron affectively.
-ron
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gunkulator
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quote:
Originally posted by player1
You forgot to add Romans into the list. |
not to mention the Persians.
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barbeerhj
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What does "Governor Dean" have to do with the Hittite UU?
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barbeerhj
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I tried the Hittites on MP, with a very interesting victory.
I did get the advantage of suprise against my near by human nations. I was lucky to get "the wheel" around 3550 b.c., and had a near-by horse to use.
By 2500 b.c., I had devastated many near by nations with raiding and capture warrior gaurded cities (very hard to send a spearman our and make one if you don't have an infrastructure).
My main plan was to raid two of my neighbores while developing my own economy for a later sword man attack. At most, I had about 5 chariots terrorizing all near-by nations. Also, I would like to add that i lost only 1 chariot to an archer assault, either retreating or defeating the other archer assaults that came.
But, spending all of those shields on my 30 shield chariots did set me back later on against farther off nations who's infrastructures could allow quick counter attacks and the dreaded swordman.
-ron
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barbeerhj
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LOL, OMFG !!
I was watching "This land is your land" political animation and I saw the sound Howard Dean made, I couldn't stop laughing.
You were right, the sound is almost exactly the same, I wonder if the people who made C3Q put that sound just to spite him.
-Ron
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barbeerhj
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Explain to me why the Hittites "are only average" and why the Egyptian UU is better when it can't take a cheap archer counter attack?
Surely, they will have a road and be able to strike back, how is it's 1 defence going to gloriously survive everytime?
Go to here for the "dean scream".
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:34
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Cost effectiveness. The Egyptian WC is 20 shields for a 2.1.2 unit. The Hittite unit costs 30 shields for 2.2.2.
It is generally held that offense is more important than defense (correct me if I'm wrong, MPers, since I'm a SP guy).
Given the same amount of resources, you can either build 10 3-man chariots, or 15 War Chariots. Hmm. True, the 3MC is a more effective pillager. But a War Chariot swarm is a lot easier to put together.
Personally, gimme the Iroquois Mounted Warrior, at 3.1.2. for 30 shields. Defend against THAT bad boy (ok, ok, if you're Greece or the Zulu you've got a good shot)!
I've played the Hittites several times in SP. I don't like the UU. Too expensive for an early, 2-attack, no-jungle/marsh/mountains UU.
Amassing large numbers of units is important in CivIII, due to the combat system. You can easily get a couple of bad combat rolls and be screwed if you don't have many units.
-Arrian
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barbeerhj
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Oh
I was thinking on the idea that a human player would be a lot more innovative then a computer one, thus the archer counter attack.
I guess that if the enemy didn't have any offensive power, then the Egyptians would be better just on the fact that they have a cheaper chariot.
But consider this, based on the Egyptian chariots sets, then massing veteran warriors has as good a chance to win as the chariot does against the spearman. Thus meaning a unit costing 10 shields can defeat or at least put an Egyptian UU out of service until it heals. Not very likely going to happen against a Hittite Chariot.
But indeed, what "newbie" would not consider the obviouse weakness of the Egyptians UU: defence.
And an average city producing 5 shields can pump out warriors with a ferocity, that is if they can keep the chariot from moving into your city limite and attacking at the same time. And keeping a few scouts or warriors scouting the boarder.
-Ron
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Solomwi
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Don King of the Apolyton HLA Movement
Dec 2002
time: 23:34
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I'm learning the beauty of the MW this week. It has replaced the Panzer as my 2nd favorite UU (sorry, Berserks are nigh on untouchable, IMO  ) and favorite ancient UU, just ahead of the GS, and I've just unleashed my horde in the last couple of days. Based on my experience with Indian spears, I'm not as concerned about taking on the Zulu with them as I was (Zulu are directly south of me in this game, along with Arabia, so I'd been eyeing Arab lands when India forced a war), since I've only had a couple of them have to retreat. AFAIK, my continent only has one source of iron, and it's pretty inaccessible, so the age of the MW ought to last a pretty good while. The downside is on the other side of India is Carthage. Of the three civs that make MWs less attractive, I get two (only four civs on my continent). Par for the course. 
Btw, due to geography and a general enjoyment of being a bastard, I've razed every Indian city I've conquered. This is giving me a vast area to repopulate, that I have cut off from the south. I'm going to keep Delhi and one other city to keep the chokepoint to Carthage blocked, as well, and should be able to peacefully REX like never before. The Ag trait and MWs can work hand in hand perfectly in the right circumstances.
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MotownDennis
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Michigan, U.S.
Feb 2003
time: 00:34
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quote:
Originally posted by barbeerhj
Oh
I was thinking on the idea that a human player would be a lot more innovative then a computer one, thus the archer counter attack.
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Sure, a human player will be much more innovative when it comes to counterattacking. A human will also be much more innovative when attacking, though. If you are using Egyptian WC's, the key is to get your stack in on the enemy before he sees it coming (or at least with not much warning). Attacking in an unexpected location is also key, which minimizes the counterattack threat.
My rationale is just like Arrian said - cost-effectiveness. Pay 50% more for one more defense? No thanks.
Besides, Egypt's traits are better suited to getting that WC stack built and off to their destination more quickly. 
Again, don't get me wrong - the 3-man chariot is ok and you've outlined the ideal uses for it (pillaging, stealing workers, resource denial). It just shocked me a little bit to see a post referring to it as "Godly". 
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barbeerhj
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Well...
In reallity, a decent human player is going to keep the terrain around him very illuminated so as not to be surprised.
What is an "unexpected location"? Surely you are not going to sacrifice your two movement and land on a hill and not take grass or plains and thus waiste your movement advantage.
Also, the Egyptians have Religious and Industrious. I can understand the Industrious advantage, even though it has been nerfed by C3Q, but faster temples?
In addition, the Hittites have a very useful trait for early game: expansionism. With this, you can quickly get another scout and scoop up those goody huts and quickly trade for or find "The Wheel" before Egypt can. Also, having scouts, they more quickly explore the world and find viable horse resources and enemy nations like Egypt
Finally, with expansionism, you can quickly find "Iron Working" after your "Bronze Working" and find your iron for later conquests.
-Ron
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barbeerhj
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Anyways...
Is not quality better then quantity?
I am willing to pay 10 more shields just so I can be assured my chariots won't drop like flies against warriors and archers. And assuming 50% faster worker actions is going to assure you much faster chariot production is misleading.
I have seen non-industrious nations infrastructure equal or superior to those of industrious nations. Why? Because the Industrious trait just isn't as good as it was. No more 3 turn mines, no more 2 turn irrigation with just one worker.
I am not bashing the industrious trait, just simply telling you that it may increase productivity, but it isn't going to give you an overwhelming advantage unit and population wise like it did in PTW and original CIV3.
-Ron
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20-07-2004 01:17
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)
I guess we know that Dean is a civer! That's very amusing. 
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