20-07-2004 20:30									#1
	TOW Infantry and Mobile SAM Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I've not played that many games in Conquests (v 1.22) yet and am intrigued by these two units, TOW Infantry and Mobile SAM. I tried a search on both but came up with a confusing bunch of results so decided to post this thread.

Are you using the TOW Infantry along with regular Infantry, in place of, or how? And once you have mech infantry do you still use TOW?

Do you prefer SAM over jet fighters or the other way round? Or with jets. Or how?

Thanks

	20-07-2004 21:32									#2
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TOW are great in cases when you need to rush for Modern Armor and just have no time to go for Computers.

They are very good in stoping normal Tanks.

Also, since they can be loaded in helicopters, they are good for airdopping tactics.

And even after you get Mech. Inf. those remaining TOWs would still give some defensive bombardment.


As for SAMs, I think that just having Jets is better, but they could find a good use in escoring your attack force, or maybe putting them to guard some your start. resource you don't want to get bombed.
Or just use them both for best effect.

	20-07-2004 21:39									#3
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The AI loves TOW Infantry, especially since you don't need any resources to build it. You simply must have MA to defeat them. I rarely build them, though.

Same with SAMs. I build a few to protect attacking or pillaging groups but that's it.

	20-07-2004 21:43									#4
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Use 2-3 Mobile SAMS in to defend your cities from air attack. They are quite effective.

If you also include at least one fighter/jetfighter on air superiority missions you'll repel 75%-80% of the ai's air attacks.

Based on my experience I think the mobile sam is a must for important cities near the frontline.

I like placing TOW infantry in important cities so that they add their defensive bombardment to any attackers.

Just some of my thoughts....

	20-07-2004 22:13									#5
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TOW infantry look cool

	20-07-2004 23:41									#6
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In my last game (huge continents map), I had my entire military on the other continent, having complete control of mine. What allowed me to do this, without fear of an invasion force slipping through and running rampant, was a division of 8 helicopters stationed on the militarized continent with 8 TOW units and 16 Marine units that could act as a rapid response force, deployed back to the home continent and ready to wipe out any invasion at the first sign of trouble.

	21-07-2004 00:13									#7
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Great answers, guys. Thanks a lot.

	21-07-2004 02:08									#8
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The really should improve TOW

I think they should add an extra defensive and offensive bonus to the unit when going against Tanks, Modern Armour, and Mech. Infantry.

Seeing as those three units use armored cavalry tactics both on defense and offence, and the TOW was made to counter them.

But, I do not see a way to do this in actual game play. Please let me know on what you think about this. Also, if you think there would be a way to do this through the editor, please post it.

-ron

	21-07-2004 02:45									#9
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There really isn't much of a need for an offensive or defensive bonus vs tanks. What else are you expecting to be attacked with? The late industrial and modern era are dominated by tanks, tanks and more tanks.

My take on TOW Infantry is that it fills the gap for a civ lacking, IIRC, oil and rubber for MechInf.

	21-07-2004 06:42									#10
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I love TOW Infantry, especially in that there is now a meaningful upgrade path for slowmovers. I'll pair them with Infantry or MIs if I've got a meaningful chokepoint or fortress somewhere, and I'll use them the same way as MPs for captured cities (better than Arty for several obvious reasons).

I've basically used Flak / Mobile SAMs as escorts for invasions. They work pretty darn well.

	21-07-2004 08:45									#11
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By the time I've built up any significant number of Flak/Mobile SAM, my strategy has shifted to a heavy bombardment phase before unleashing with marines and armor, which means I usually have two very vulnerable unit concentrations: air units stacked a mile high on an airfield or two at the front line (to maximize bombardment coverage) and transports in the coastal border city or cities (to let my marines complement the main invasion by taking care of coastal cities). Flak and Mobile SAM prove very useful here, as the AI will invariably target those two concentrations with its bombers, as would I, in its shoes.

Usually this phase will go several turns, until I feel like I've got soft targets everywhere I want to attack in the first invasion turn. This means that the AA units tend to get a workout right up to the point that my enemy's air power is rendered non-existent. There's something very satisfying about seeing every enemy border city left completely unguarded after a round of air raids.

	21-07-2004 10:55									#12
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One nice thing about Mobile SAMs is that their effectivness is not affected by stealth planes.

So few Mob. SAMs are better defense from Stl. Bombers then Jets.

	21-07-2004 16:51									#13
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Couple of questions, Theseus: what are MIs and MPs?
And why would you need Flak AND Mobile SAMs? Aren't they both doing the same thing?

	22-07-2004 02:09									#14
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On the Civ3Players ladder, TOW are the backbone of the future start army (future start is all tech done). No resources needed and can be both an attacker and defender. Considerably better than the alternative, rifleman, particularly against chessey war elephant rushes by someone playing India. TOWs will keep you in the game against any opponent except those lucky enough to get the future start trifecta of oil, rubber and aluminum.

Mobile SAM also has an important place in the online game. Since airpower is used mostly to deny resources to your opponent (The Bomber Choke), the mobile SAM is used to protect roads more than cities or units.

	22-07-2004 04:33									#15
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Modern start... interesting idea.

	22-07-2004 05:54									#16
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quote: Originally posted by MyOlde Couple of questions, Theseus: what are MIs and MPs? And why would you need Flak AND Mobile SAMs? Aren't they both doing the same thing?

MI = Mech Infantry
MP = Military Police

Flak upgrade to Mobile SAMs

	22-07-2004 06:42									#17
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The Indian elephant rush is cheesy ?!

That and the spanish rush has to be one the most powerful rushes in games starting in anything after Industrial ages.

I have seen the Indian UU dominating early in future age games. In fact, the Spanish UU is probably a lot better, if you can be lucky enough to find a horse near-by very early on.

On a side-note, I think the Spanish should have recieved "Expansionism" instead of "Religious". Mainly because of the Spanish exploring a good part of the new world, setting colonies up all over South, Central, North America, and Mexico.

In addition, the Spanish were one of the most imperialistic countries in history, rivaling that of England for a good while.

Finally, the Spanish religious trait has much less affected the world then their lust for exploration during the 1500's. Why, their language is spoken in many nations, from the Americas to Africa.

-Ron

	22-07-2004 10:14									#18
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quote: Originally posted by barbeerhj Finally, the Spanish religious trait has much less affected the world then their lust for exploration during the 1500's. Why, their language is spoken in many nations, from the Americas to Africa. -Ron

I totally agree. The Spanish didn't do very well exporting their religion . . . oh, wait.

	27-07-2004 01:58									#19
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Exporting religion?

That comes after imperialization....which in turns comes after explorers have found the land...which comes after the nation decides to try and uncover the unknown.

And what does "exporting religion" have to do with being a religious nation?

-ron

	28-07-2004 17:30									#20
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Since I started this thread, I've moved quite far along in my current game and have concluded that I will, in future, only build TOW if I have to. They certainly don't compare with Mech Infantry.

I'm not so sure about mobile SAMs. I still like watching my jet fighters scream across the sky and pick off those lumbering bombers! I'll probably stick with them, too.

I'm playing a full out domination game which I've never done before. I got to the point where I sort of had to decide whether I wanted to build a space ship and thought, "Oh hell, not again!" And since Portugal (and the others, for that matter) had been picking on me on and off through the game I decided to just sweep them off the map. I won't wipe them out entirely but make them kiss the ground at my feet. Right now I have 8 or 9 armies in the field and have finished with Portugal; now I'm teaching old Joan of France a few lessons.

I love those armies!

	28-07-2004 19:49									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Solomwi By the time I've built up any significant number of Flak/Mobile SAM, my strategy has shifted to a heavy bombardment phase before unleashing with marines and armor, which means I usually have two very vulnerable unit concentrations: air units stacked a mile high on an airfield or two at the front line (to maximize bombardment coverage) and transports in the coastal border city or cities (to let my marines complement the main invasion by taking care of coastal cities). Flak and Mobile SAM prove very useful here, as the AI will invariably target those two concentrations with its bombers, as would I, in its shoes. Usually this phase will go several turns, until I feel like I've got soft targets everywhere I want to attack in the first invasion turn. This means that the AA units tend to get a workout right up to the point that my enemy's air power is rendered non-existent. There's something very satisfying about seeing every enemy border city left completely unguarded after a round of air raids.

See..I love Tanking it up!

I go to mass Tank building and Bulldoze my way through, sure, lose a few tanks but overall, wipe em out..I do when well into the game have SAMS set upas well as a few T O W on mountain tops..Love this game

Gramps

	28-07-2004 21:56									#22
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I tend to end up with TOW Infantry due to defender upgrades for earlier in the game. (I like to hold onto units whenever I can, not always the best strat). I frequenty place an archer in each base as a defender as early on (or longbowman a little later) if I feel relatively safe, on the basis that they bombard defense and can be used for attacking later. Even guerilla's work okay for that.

TOW aren't a primary defense unless needed, but the bombard defense can keep your other units alive if there is a suprise attack.

Mobile SAMs are pretty good. Moving air defenses that can back up jet fighters are never a bad thing.

I guess I like to have a good spread of units. As an example, I would rather have 3 mech infantry and 2 TOW than 5 Mech Infantry in most defensive situations, and 2 Jet Fighters and a Mobile Sam than 3 Jet Fighters.

	28-07-2004 23:34									#23
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quote: Originally posted by barbeerhj The Indian elephant rush is cheesy ?! That and the spanish rush has to be one the most powerful rushes in games starting in anything after Industrial ages.

Yes, the elephant rush is considered cheesy in MP Future Start games. Why? For the same reason a Future Start jag rush is considered cheesy. Elephants and jags aren't modern units. Future Start isn't about these units. Don't get me wrong - I personally have nothing against it; just explaining the way some people feel about it.