20-07-2004 23:26									#1
	no Gallic Swordsman available Increase Your PM Length

I upgraded from 1.15 to 1.22 yesterday. When playing the Celts, I was hoping to eventually build some Gallic Swordsmen...
When I finally got my hands on some iron, I noticed that I could only build Medieval Infantry. UU's used to be available at all times before 1.22, right?
The thing is: I know that GS upgrade to MI, but I'd rather build GS because they move 2 per turn.
At that time, my Golden Age had already ended, but what if it hadn't? How could I trigger it if GS were no longer available?
What am I missing here?

	20-07-2004 23:37									#2
	Remove this text

If the GA hadn't already begun, you would have been able to build the GS, as well as MI. I'm with you in not really being gung-ho about upgrading to MI.

As for your last question, if the GS were unavailable (which, just to be clear, it isn't if you haven't triggered your GA), you could trigger it with wonders.

	20-07-2004 23:55									#3
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Solomwi If the GA hadn't already begun, you would have been able to build the GS, as well as MI. I'm with you in not really being gung-ho about upgrading to MI. As for your last question, if the GS were unavailable (which, just to be clear, it isn't if you haven't triggered your GA), you could trigger it with wonders.

Well, that crossed my mind but I wasn't sure. I think the UU should be available at all times, but if it's there at least until you trigger a GA, I guess that's not too bad... there are more important bugs to fix.

Of course, I know I could trigger a GA with wonders, but I was looking for an early one.

Thanks.

	21-07-2004 00:02									#4
	Support Apolyton

That is why if I have an ancient UU, I always make at least one, right away. Then I can use it to trigger anytime, even if I can no longer build that UU.

You just have to hold it until you have a 1hp target.

	21-07-2004 01:31									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

But it is an annoying feature of the game. I've been in the same boat with MI vs GS. In my last game I didn't have horses so GS was my only possible 2-mover.

In my current game as the Byz, I ran into the same thing with Dromon. They can't be built anymore once their upgrade unit is available, Galleons. Yes you can build Frigates, but Dromon only cost 30, can carry 2 units and have lethal sea bombard.

I Dromon.

	21-07-2004 03:16									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I agree that when it's a bit ambiguous whether or not to upgrade, the civ should have both options. Of course, off the top of my head, I'm not sure how you'd do that without screwing up the ability to upgrade to and from a UU, other than adding special stock units named slightly differently for those civs.

	21-07-2004 03:19									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Had you already triggered your GA with wonders? Because IME until your GA you can always build the UU.

	22-07-2004 02:20									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Once you trigger you GA your UU will obsolete when the replacement unit is available. No GA, then no obsolete UU. I played a game as Aztecs. Map posdition dictated that an early GA would not be good so I held back attacking. I had my GA in late industrial by building Hoover Dam to go along with SunTzu. Up until my GA I was using Jags to follow along with my cav. Take a city move in jags and upgrade them to guerillas. That pretty much put a damper on any AI counter-attacks until I could get the railroads in.

	22-07-2004 03:36									#9
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

But if you were defending with the Guerillas, how did you avoid your GA?

	22-07-2004 04:26									#10
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker But if you were defending with the Guerillas, how did you avoid your GA?

When you upgrade the jags cease to be UUs.

	25-07-2004 04:03									#13
	Suffering from ads?

One thing is really annyoing about obsolete UUs: if you had no GA yet, thus can still build a useful outdated UU (Legions, Dromons, Gallics), all builds will be autoswitched every time you get a new tech. And usually, you waste a couple of shields here...

	25-07-2004 16:29									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Maybe the GS upgrade path should be changed from MI to Knight?

	25-07-2004 18:50									#15
	Get a bigger avatar today!

That's not possible, with Warriors upgrading to GS.

	25-07-2004 21:53									#16
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker That's not possible, with Warriors upgrading to GS.

Why's that? Num.mercs upgrade to musketmen, thus bypassing one step on the normal spearman to mech.inf upgrade chain.

	26-07-2004 01:02									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

That's because pikes upgrade (with some intermediates, probably) to Num. Mercs. Carthage can't build pikes.

The problem is that you're proposing to create a split in the chain, and that's not possible.

	26-07-2004 01:14									#18
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Actually, NM upgrade to pikes in the editor, though that step is skipped since pikes are unavailable to Carthage.

A convergent chain is possible, like longbows and MI both upgrading to Guerillas, but the split has to go all the way to the bottom of the chain.

One workaround for this problem would be to give the Celts a unit called "Warrior ", identical to the Warrior in every way, except the space at the end of the name and the upgrade path, which would go W->GS->Knight. You'd have to make sure you also changed the Swordsman to upgrade to Legionary, instead of GS.

	26-07-2004 01:19									#19
	Tired of ads?

There is no bypass for NumMec. Pikes are simply not enabled for Carthage.
For the Dutch UU, the situation is quite strange on first sight:
Pikes->Musketman->Musketeer (France only)-> Swiss Merc -> Rifle

The reasoning behind is pretty good: You wouldn't want to build Muskets as the Dutch - unless you happen to have no Iron, but Saltpeter...

	26-07-2004 01:45									#20
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Solomwi Actually, NM upgrade to pikes in the editor, though that step is skipped since pikes are unavailable to Carthage.

Oh, I thought he meant nm upgraded directly to muskets in the editor.