21-07-2004 03:13									#1
	FAM Reorganization - URGENT! Increase the size of your Attachments

We have no FAM.

Togas renounced his position a few weeks ago during the whole Parthemunde controversy and conmcb25, his deputy has been AWOL with sightings less frequent than Haley's comet.

At first I thought we might not really need a FAM since true diplomacy in this game is all but over. However, I was very VERY displeased at the way some people have taken their own agenda with other teams without consultation at all with any of the consuls or anyone else in the forum or chat.

This happened more than once with Trip before, it is happening with E_T now. I am not happy at the fact that CFC was told that WIA was a consul in the middle of an election. It is a lack of respect for the democratic process that this team has that such things happen.

Having been a FAM member for most of 2003, I wish I could be more active in diplomacy these days, but sadly, I can't. Not because of lack of time but because of IRC difficulties which make me disconnect after just a few minutes of idleness in any server, those in chat are witness to this. We urgently need a FAM and at the very least one ACTIVE ambassador, capable of hanging out at CFC's chat room or in constant communication with other teams.

And I hate to re-emphazise this but no member has the right to go to another team's chat room and talk about sensitive issues without prior consultation with the consuls or the team.. Nothing is more un-professional than having patchy diplomacy where one person says something and then ends up having to correct it or apologize for it simply because that person did not bother to consult it with the people in charge.

I will get VERY pissed if this happens again, and I hope that if we have a good FAM reorganization we can avoid these sensitive issues in the future.

Please post if you are willing to serve actively (emphasis on this word) in the FAM. The only requirement is to be available in chat and to hang out and communicate with other teams (particularly CFC).

Thanks and sorry for the rant, but I feel it is necessary so that these things don't happen again.

-MZ

	21-07-2004 03:19									#2
	Put an end to popups!

More than an ambassador's role I am not able to fulfil serious way right now.

Aidun

	21-07-2004 03:29									#3
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I would step up, but I will be away basically all of August.

	21-07-2004 03:36									#4
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I probably have enough time to commit to at least that. But a few things prevent me from participating in the FAM anymore.

1.) The lack of any consistant ambassador on CFC's part is just plain infuriating. No one over there has any clue what they are talking about or what is going on. From what I gather, it is just a free-for-all over there. First one to play the save "wins."

2.) After getting chewed out for offering a solution to the whole "CFC wants a chokepoint" fiasco and then getting chewed out for it by the entire leadership of this team (which ironically enough ended up implimenting the exact plan I suggested with no qualms), the FAM position simply lost its fun for me. Now everytime I'm in chat, I feel like I'm walking on egg shells. It's not a fun. Every now and then I'll initiate contact with someone at CFC or CGN for a simple question, but I don't like haggling over plans anymore. The purpose of the FAM is to conduct diplomacy for the team without having to be micromanaged, but at the same time, we evidentially have to check with the leaders before we say anything, to make sure it is approved. It's not an active role anymore, so much as it is a "messenger" position. That isn't fun either.

Mostly though, I blame the other teams. We at Apolyton have always prided ourself on our professional ways, and under Togas, we were an amazing team. The thing is, none of the other teams took diplomacy as serious as we did. Flaky contacts, forgetful people all contributed to just not making it fun.

	21-07-2004 03:56									#5
	Put an end to popups!

I forwarded Zarn's PM to the Consuls in hopes they would get back to him. E_T got back to him. However, Cheetah then write back to us saying:

quote: What needs to be discussed: - The future of our tech and gold trades. What are we aiming for? Shall we continue with us sending you gold and you sending us techs? Shall both research for theirselves and then trade? - The attack. As you will be landing in two turns time there isn't to much to discuss here, as what I was interested in knowing was if you could spare some forces for Leo's as well as Ruhrpott. Because the GWT-CGN war ended prematurely, I do not believe CFCs force will be enough to capture Leo's alone. I don't know what times would be the best time to meet, as it is unlikely that I will join these meetings myself. My internet connection isn't what it once were, so until I get a new one, I'm trying to limit my time on the net. Cheetah, Minister of the Military of Fanatikou

I can make myself available this evening, as I have no prior engagements. However, if you need someone who's more available or doesn't have the bitter views of the war that I have. I have no problems with allowing someone else to handle this, that may be what's best for the current leadership.

What I need to know is:

1) How long do we plan to suck gold off of CFC and give them tech in return only after GWT gets it? When do we make them full partners? How much gold should they be giving us anyhow?

2) Are we going to tell CFC not to send any Riders because they can't possibly win against against the awesome might that is GWT? Or should we tell them that we're attacking in 2 turns, and they can take their chances? How much honesty should we give them?

--Togas

	21-07-2004 05:24									#6
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Togas I forwarded Zarn's PM to the Consuls in hopes they would get back to him. E_T got back to him. However, Cheetah then write back to us saying: I can make myself available this evening, as I have no prior engagements. However, if you need someone who's more available or doesn't have the bitter views of the war that I have. I have no problems with allowing someone else to handle this, that may be what's best for the current leadership. What I need to know is: 1) How long do we plan to suck gold off of CFC and give them tech in return only after GWT gets it? When do we make them full partners? How much gold should they be giving us anyhow?

Well, as we have the economic power to do the research AND we will finish ANYTHING that CFC even was to start researching long before they would even get it done, what is the point of them researching??

The "Partnership" allows us to use our economic might, to get the research done, as soon as we can. When we have the ability to do 5 to 6 turn techs, all of the way up to our GA AND 4 turn techs while in it, there is no need for them to do any research, EXCEPT for techs that we aren't going for immeadiately, like Printing Press and then, later, Democracy or some of the Industrual era techs. And they don;t need to do those techs as fast.

We have given them 3 techs recently (Education, Astronomy & Navigation). If they had researched them on their own (with the reduced cost with us having them first), they would have had to pay out 3368 beakers to get those 3 techs on their own. From turn 157 (when we started researching education) to now, a total of 32 turns, at an average of 40 GPT from CFC, they have payed us about 1280 Gold for techs that they are getting on the "cheap". That's a return of 2.63 times of what they gave us for that research. This does not include the money that they gave us for the strike (which wasn;t really much more than they were giving us in the first place. And, during that 32 turns, we also got Monarchy (their cost of 518 beakers - Making their "return" at more than 3 times what they payed out), which will start paying us off, in just a few turns.

We WILL be in Industrial, in 31 turns. The best thing that CFC can do, is to help us with that and work on getting ready for the main event. When we think it;s an appropriate time, we will send them Banking (if GWT/GCA doesn;t have it first), so that they can build Banks. But they are helping ALL of us with their gold more than their research.

So, if you really want to look at it, they are the ones getting the most out of it

quote: 2) Are we going to tell CFC not to send any Riders because they can't possibly win against against the awesome might that is GWT? Or should we tell them that we're attacking in 2 turns, and they can take their chances? How much honesty should we give them? --Togas

As for where they are headed to, that needs to be found out, ASAP. We don;t need them landing next to the GWT slowmover stack. We DO want them to have some form of success in their Mission. But then, we don't have much in the way of info at this time.

	21-07-2004 05:31									#7
	Remove this text

Good questions Togas.

Togas has a point that is possibly not clear to some.

While the FAM has be "inactive" there has been little to no orders from the leadership as to what messages/information we should be giving or getting from the various teams.

As to trying to answer Togas's questions I will give my input on them..but it's only my opinion.

1. We will "suck" gold from CFC for still quite awhile. While our economy and ability to reseach is much stronger than there's and our ability to research is capable of being maxed out at 4 turns (or even close to it) we should continue with the cuurrent arragnement with CFC handing over the majority of it's gold for that purpose. They are "full" partners now; it's just we have the better infrastructure to make use of the gold while they do not have that same ability yet. Maybe in time as they build and expand, they will. As far as "how much gold" they should be giving us depends on them being honest about things as well as us being honest to them. CFC could very well use excess gold to short rush items and make unit upgrades. But, they need to be able to funnel "X" amount of gold to us so that we can continue our desired rate of research. How much do we need? The more the better, obviously. So, it really comes down to ho much they can give while still allowing them to improve their economy and their military strength.

2. Their attack on Leo's may go great; we don't know. We don't know how many Ansars that GWT will send up to us and we don't know how many of them will die. We don't know if GCA will be able to muster any troops to significantly hinder a CFC attack on that target. I'd say we give them the best info we have, but let them figure out what to do on their own without any input as to our thoughts on their supossed sucess rate on such an attack. And frankly, it's because we really don't know. Let's see what happens.

	21-07-2004 05:42									#8
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree While the FAM has be "inactive" there has been little to no orders from the leadership as to what messages/information we should be giving or getting from the various teams.

Because, traditionally, this aspect of diplomacy was usually handled in chat and since it's been quite some time since there was actually an active FAM member hanging out in the chat.

Heck, there's hardly been an active FAM member even posting here in the forum. Con was doing practically all of it until he went AWOL...

	21-07-2004 06:05									#9
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Now, as to the future:

* indicates Optional Techs, not needed for the next age

code:

     Tech                    Our Beaker Cost        Their Beaker Cost    Their Cash Investment (at 30 GPT)       

*Music Theory               5 turns - 960 beakers          864 beakers      150 gold
Banking                     6 turns - 1248 beakers        1123 beakers      180 gold
*Economics                  6 turns - 1344 beakers        1209 beakers      180 gold
Chemistry                   6 turns - 1440 beakers        1296 beakers      180 gold
Physics                     6 turns - 1536 beakers        1382 beakers      180 gold
Magnetism                   6 turns - 1632 beakers        1468 beakers      180 gold
OUR GA STARTS HERE!!
*Metalurgy                  4 turns - 1536 beakers        1382 beakers      120 gold
*Military Tradition         4 turns - 1536 beakers        1382 beakers      120 gold
Theory of Gravity           4 turns - 1632 beakers        1468 beakers      120 gold
Steam Power OR Nationalism  8 turns - 2880 beakers        2592 beakers      240 gold
OUR GA ENDS HERE!!!

	21-07-2004 06:11									#10
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I'm online now and available to chat, but I still need to hear what the Consuls want, and I urge them to decide what they want to do and to let me know.

--Togas

	21-07-2004 06:27									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Now, I had proposed this to Arnelos, a while back (I think maybe MZ and Trip/Kloreep at the time, too). That we have them pay a sliding scale of, say 30% to 40%, rounded down, of what they are making in GPT every turn. We would have a maximum of, say 40 gold every turn and a Minimum of 10 Gold every turn.

This would allow them to get their own cash researves up, for eventual upgrades. Also, as they build more Improvements and Units, this will allow them to have lower GPT amounts and still get their funds in order for the Main event (IT IS COMING!!). The Max would let them take advantage of their GA and build up their treasury with out seeming that we are s*cking them dry.....

I had based this on informal talks I had with Cheetah, while we were working on the details of the strike. He had told me, at that time, that they had an average of around 100 GPT income, but with more units being built and the extra money for our (combined) strike, that is was very hard for them to balance their own budget. I was able to balance ours and work with them as to what we needed and they were then able to deliver it.

So, as I would like to have more, I'm willing to go with a reduced income from them (30GPT for now is good). But the actual % figure is negotiable, IMHO.

IIRC, Zarn was one who was wanting to start their own research effort, after they had completed PP. As I've shown above, we only need them to invest a small sum, to get a very high reward.

They need to not build Libraries, atleast for some time, but work on Markets, Barracks, Untis, Colluseums, Units, Temples, And More Mil Units, because, as their Part of this Partnership is to help to protect our back, so that GWT/GCA can't Invade (trust me, they will attempt to invade there first).

E_T

	21-07-2004 06:32									#12
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Perhaps the Consuls should appoint E_T to run the FAM in addition to running the MOW and MOI? Would be far more efficient, CFC could just write to him and he could write them directly back instead of telling us what to say to them.

--Togas

	21-07-2004 08:07									#13
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Hmmmmm...... Scary place.

	21-07-2004 11:59									#14
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btw, this is soooooo ironic. My ISP had some trouble on sunday/monday and it was pretty slow. Then today it got ok and miraculously, I never got disconnected from IRC.

Let's hope it wasn't just a one-day thing, this coul dmake me more active in diplomacy again to hopefully help out the NewFAM if it is ever formed.

	21-07-2004 21:41									#15
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Well, I could take a FAM role, but I will be away twenty one days this month. Is that too much?

	21-07-2004 23:00									#16
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I think Togas is still wanting to get us on track as the head of the FAM. Out wo biggest goals are to keep CGN in-line with what we need and feel they should do and to work closley with CFC regarding our economies/research plans and war plans. I think Togas is perfect for that. I'm sure he needs willing and able assistants to implement theses plans once they are fully formulated.

The formulation of theses plans should come about through talks between the Consuls, the FAM, including input from the team and concurrent chats with CFC. No one person sets our policy. It's a combined effort with the Consulship and FAM taking the lead.

	22-07-2004 06:46									#17
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

After a VERY long chat with MZ, the following conclusions were made:

1) My feeling that the FAM was no longer a necessary part of the team, and that it's job could be done by anyone was incorrect.

2) It's a job that still needs someone active to do it, and do it well.

While we are in locked alliances at this point, and while there is much less to do than before, there IS work that still remains, and work that has pretty much been undone by anyone.

What needs to be done:
1) Repair and Rekindle our partnership with CFC. Get away from the master-servant relationship that has developed, or the "afterthought" mentality, and get them feeling that we're a team and that they're a major part of it. This can be done via email, since CFC doesn't seem to chat much anymore, and it should be done by someone who's a diplomat, not just passing on terms or demands from the team.

2) Improve our public image. This includes the UN and dealings with GCA, GWT, and CGN. We need to resist the urge to bicker with the enemy

3) Advise the Consuls on potential peace treaties or truces, and deal with GWT and GCA when they contact us after our attack. Facilitate future resources/lux trades, if any are needed.

4) Promote a more active war effort and the destruction of GWT by -- oh, wait. Sorry. That's just my own personal agenda.

5) Hang around in chat and tell MZ that he's lazy and he sucks.

But seriously, back to the job. The job doesn't need a full staff like the old days. All it needs is a minister and a backup. Unfortunately, the job isn't one that will keep a guy THAT busy, it's just one that needs someone to do it quickly and responsively.

As I've said before, I have no problem being replaced. I've grown a bit old and grumpy and taken this thing for granted. The team would be well served by a new person with enthusiasm and energy for the job. However, now that I've gotten most of my beefs out in the open and dealt with them and resolved my differences, things should start heading back to "normal" for us ... whatever the heck that means.

--Togas

	22-07-2004 06:48									#18
	Remove this text

Welcome back to the clan of wimps and pansies.

	22-07-2004 07:10									#19
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Thanks Togas. I would hope that you are still interested in doing these things that you lined out. If not, I think Beta would be interested (if not already considereing taking on the MoIjob)

	22-07-2004 09:32									#20
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Togas 5) Hang around in chat and tell MZ that he's lazy and he sucks.

I knew that was the part you'd miss most

	22-07-2004 15:15									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Togas 1) My feeling that the FAM was no longer a necessary part of the team, and that it's job could be done by anyone was incorrect.

Thanks Togas. I have been feeling ever more recently with watching the latest troubles surfacing in the chatroom, knowing I was perhaps soon-to-be Consul having to really deal with the mess 9what was I stepping into?). Any help you can give will be super-appreciated.

quote: What needs to be done: 1) Repair and Rekindle our partnership with CFC. Get away from the master-servant relationship that has developed, or the "afterthought" mentality, and get them feeling that we're a team and that they're a major part of it. This can be done via email, since CFC doesn't seem to chat much anymore, and it should be done by someone who's a diplomat, not just passing on terms or demands from the team.

This sounds like one of the most important. We must firm up our commitment to them. Without knowing precise details, if we are to give them all those techs for such a small cost to them, then that sounds good, but we need IMO to NOT wait until GWT gets them before we give anything over - at least not for every tech. I'd hope we can decide that some of those techs are less dangerous to reduce the cost for than others, and we would commit to offering them sooner rather than stalling on every tech.

Perhaps we can sell this all to them with a special Infomercial - send only 30% of your income per turn, yes only 30% per turn! And look what you get.. We'll even throw in this very special import set of German manufactured gold watches. Only one efficient previous user each, and with only a small amount of blood to wash off of them.... I nominate WB as salesman... Where's the :contract: smiley?!

quote: 2) Improve our public image. This includes the UN and dealings with GCA, GWT, and CGN. We need to resist the urge to bicker with the enemy

Oh yes. And if we need to come down hard on those of our own team who may start this bickering, I promise I will help to do so. This is something I want over with. That is what our forums are for (and even that's a stretch), not the UN. These will be trying times, with GCA and likely GWT jeering at us during and after our strike, but we must not reply except under strictly controlled channels. We are a proud team, and I want us to ascend to our place at the top of this game, economically as well as in terms of diplomatic courteousness. We'll just ignore this minor invasion matter...

quote: 5) Hang around in chat and tell MZ that he's lazy and he sucks.

Your cause is noble, and I feel it is all Poly members' solemn duty to help uphold this great patriotic act in as many situations as possible. I would especially like to grant mrmitchell special license in this matter.

	22-07-2004 21:37									#22
	Inflate your Upload Space

I am willing to step in, be the FAM, and deliver the game plan laid out by Togas - if the consuls and membership determine that that would be OK.

I think the plus here is that I have had no involvement to-date with the other teams - so I can present a completely fresh face and approach that may rebuild some of the bridges we are talking about.

As I said in the consul election discussion, I have more time available right now, and to be honest, BFM's visit sort of rekindled my interest in the team side of Apolyton.

And other than MZ who is lazy and sucks, I get along well with the consuls and the new Generalism, and the membership.

Let me know - or if someone else is anxious for this position, please step up.

	22-07-2004 22:34									#23
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Guys, I can still help as needed.

However as MZ has so eloquently pointed out my online time has diminished recently. Mainly due to compounding real life issues.

Ill reasd thru this thread and try and figure out what is going on.

If we need a CFC ambassador, Aidun volunteered for the job a while back.

BUT as Togas and Beta said, its kind of hard to tell Aidun what we need him to do if we aren't getting at a minimum consul input, and preferably team input.

FAM dont exist in a vacuum. (Well OK MZ was the exception )

	22-07-2004 23:25									#24
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* Master Zen seriously considers turning this into the official MZ-bashing thread

	22-07-2004 23:41									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Beta I am willing to step in, be the FAM, and deliver the game plan laid out by Togas - if the consuls and membership determine that that would be OK. I think the plus here is that I have had no involvement to-date with the other teams - so I can present a completely fresh face and approach that may rebuild some of the bridges we are talking about. As I said in the consul election discussion, I have more time available right now, and to be honest, BFM's visit sort of rekindled my interest in the team side of Apolyton. And other than MZ who is lazy and sucks, I get along well with the consuls and the new Generalism, and the membership. Let me know - or if someone else is anxious for this position, please step up.

C3C ISDG ring a bell?

	22-07-2004 23:55									#26
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Master Zen * Master Zen seriously considers turning this into the official MZ-bashing thread

Notice it was done in jest.

Is the CFC chat still needed? Who is going to honcho that??

	23-07-2004 00:47									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Nuclear Master C3C ISDG ring a bell?

Different game and dynamics. Different time for me.

con - I can arrange and handle the CFC chat.

We should also see if WhiteBandit wants back into the action. WB??

	23-07-2004 01:26									#28
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Well, WB stated he did not want to be involved with the FAM in the beginning of the thread, maybe he changed his mind.

	23-07-2004 02:00									#29
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Beta Different game and dynamics. Different time for me. con - I can arrange and handle the CFC chat. We should also see if WhiteBandit wants back into the action. WB??

I suppose I can step up.

	23-07-2004 04:16									#30
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It's good that everyone is volunteering for action, but there really isn't that much action to be had.

Yes, there is work to do, but this isn't anything like our old FAM. The job is small enough now that 1 minister and 1 deputy are all we need. If we sign up a bunch of people to do a little bit each, the general lack of responsibility will cause an overall lack of interest in the job.

Pick one guy. Have him pick a deputy. And have that person just dedicate himself to being on top of things.

--Togas