22-07-2004 00:00									#91
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara No, we just don't have a pessamistic view of human nature. We realize that selfishness is only one of many conflicting impulses in human motivations, and can often be overridden, even without social programming (like religion). Our willingness to charge into danger to save a loved one is just as hardwired and is the ultimate unselfish act, for example.

See the other thread. There is no un-self-interested act, as everyone always acts towards their greatest inclinations.

	22-07-2004 00:03									#92
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If thre is no such think as an un-self-interested act, the term is meaningless.

	22-07-2004 00:09									#93
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Yup. The closest thing to "altruism" is deriving happiness from another person's happiness.

	22-07-2004 00:11									#94
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I think I mixed up Inferno and Solaria because I had inferno on the mid, since I have that novel.

	22-07-2004 00:17									#95
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Che - fine, if you simply are "not pessimistic" and we are, you are RELATIVELY optimistic. Ok? Good, that's settled then.

Back to Asimov and Robot books...

GePap - was Inferno any good?

-Arrian

	22-07-2004 00:20									#96
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I, Bored

	22-07-2004 00:21									#97
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Hence reading this thread, or visiting 'poly in the first place?

-Arrian

	22-07-2004 00:22									#98
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That was my reaction to the movie, actually.

	22-07-2004 01:15									#99
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Sure there is no act without self-interest, but many acts are of mutual interest, that is, benefiting you, will benefit me.

	22-07-2004 01:17									#100
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Watching I, Robot is not in my self-interest. It will cost me money and annoy me. If I chose to do it anyway, however, Kuciwalker would declare that I have acted in my self-interest, because I chose to watch the movie.

	22-07-2004 01:20									#101
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Kuciwalker is good at gerrymandering his definitions to the point that you can't disagree with him.

	22-07-2004 01:20									#102
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Either that or you're insane. Any rational being acts towards his (or her) greatest inclination.

quote: Sure there is no act without self-interest, but many acts are of mutual interest, that is, benefiting you, will benefit me.

Definately. Trade, for example. Loans, investments, etc.

	22-07-2004 01:21									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist Kuciwalker is good at gerrymandering his definitions to the point that you can't disagree with him.

I see no other non-arbitrary definition of self-interest.

	22-07-2004 01:22									#104
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quote: Watching I, Robot is not in my self-interest. It will cost me money and annoy me. If I chose to do it anyway, however, Kuciwalker would declare that I have acted in my self-interest, because I chose to watch the movie.

Um... DUH! If you CHOSE to watch the movie, it was most definetly in your self interest to do so, or else you would not have.

	22-07-2004 01:50									#105
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I chose to do things that aren't in my self interest all the time.

	22-07-2004 03:12									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Watching I, Robot is not in my self-interest. It will cost me money and annoy me. If I chose to do it anyway, however, Kuciwalker would declare that I have acted in my self-interest, because I chose to watch the movie. Um... DUH! If you CHOSE to watch the movie, it was most definetly in your self interest to do so, or else you would not have.

Not necessarily. People chose to do things that are not in their self-interest (perceived and real) all the time.

	22-07-2004 03:15									#107
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I was thinking about going to see this film - is it any good?

	22-07-2004 03:22									#108
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Not necessarily. People chose to do things that are not in their self-interest (perceived and real) all the time.

Such as?

	22-07-2004 03:33									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker I see no other non-arbitrary definition of self-interest.

I can think of a few.

All pretty much hinge on various defintions of "non-arbitrary", tho. I mean, for a very sensible one, all definitions are arbitrary.

	22-07-2004 03:59									#110
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I saw the film last night. While not Oscar-worthy (except for special effects), I found it to be wholly watchable. Not only did it have the requisite summer blockbuster action, it maintained a level of philosphy that was akin to the first Matrix. Will Smith and the guy who does Sonny's voice and movements were great, and the plot and characters both had sufficient development.

I have never read Asimov's works, so I was able to take in this movie without bias. I give it 3 1/2 stars.

	22-07-2004 04:25									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Such as?

Despite hating the idea of pets I look after a dog, because she is unable to look after herself and would otherwise she would be neglected. (as she has previously been)

I'm a vegetarian not for my own benefit, but for that of other animal's, and the environment.


I could go on...

	22-07-2004 04:28									#112
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You are a vegitarian because you are happier (or think you are happier) as a vegetarian, than not as one. You would be unhappy not helping that dog. Thus, it's not un-self-interested.

quote: I can think of a few.

Such as?

	22-07-2004 04:43									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker You are a vegitarian because you are happier (or think you are happier) as a vegetarian, than not as one. You would be unhappy not helping that dog. Thus, it's not un-self-interested.

Yes, I would be unhappy because I don't like to see other beings suffer. How horribly selfish of me.

	22-07-2004 05:04									#114
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quote: People chose to do things that are not in their self-interest (perceived and real) all the time.

If you CHOOSE to see the movie, you are doing it because it is in your self-interest to. You want to for some reason. To argue otherwise is to be totally idiotic.

quote: es, I would be unhappy because I don't like to see other beings suffer. How horribly selfish of me.

You prove his point. You are a vegetarian because you'd be unhappy eating animals. It is in your self-interest thus not to eat them.

	22-07-2004 05:07									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui You prove his point. You are a vegetarian because you'd be unhappy eating animals. It is in your self-interest thus not to eat them.

You can't use happiness as a motivation behind everything without looking at the reasons behind the happiness itself.

Happiness can be derived from things that aren't a matter of your own self interest.

	22-07-2004 05:09									#116
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quote: You can't use happiness as a motivation behind everything without looking at the reasons behind the happiness itself. Happiness can be derived from things that aren't a matter of your own self interest.

But obviously it IS a matter of self-interest because everyone wants to be happier, whether in the short term or long term. Only those who are irrational do not want to be happy.

You may fool yourself by saying I'm actually doing this in the interest of someone else, but you are doing it because it makes you feel good and believe you should.

	22-07-2004 05:12									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: You can't use happiness as a motivation behind everything without looking at the reasons behind the happiness itself. Happiness can be derived from things that aren't a matter of your own self interest. But obviously it IS a matter of self-interest because everyone wants to be happier, whether in the short term or long term. Only those who are irrational do not want to be happy. You may fool yourself by saying I'm actually doing this in the interest of someone else, but you are doing it because it makes you feel good and believe you should.

But in this case what makes me happy isn't in my self-interest in the first place. So if that is the case, and I am doing it to be happy, I am by proxy doing it for reasons other than my own self interest.

	22-07-2004 05:13									#118
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quote: But in this case what makes me happy isn't in my self-interest in the first place.

Yes it is. Being happy is your self-interest. Anything that acts towards that end is therefore in your self-interest.

	22-07-2004 05:16									#119
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quote: what makes me happy isn't in my self-interest in the first place.

But you know it makes you happy and being happy is in your self interest. So you are doing it in your self-interest (ie, to be happy). Like I said no rational person want to be unhappy.

	22-07-2004 05:19									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: But in this case what makes me happy isn't in my self-interest in the first place. Yes it is. Being happy is your self-interest.

You're still not looking at the cause of the happiness itself

If happiness is derived through something that is not in your own self interest, how can that happiness be selfish?

Or are you telling me that I am selfish because I don't like to see other beings suffer? How completely absurd!