22-07-2004 05:21									#121
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quote: If happiness is derived through something that is not in your own self interest

Happiness can't be derived from something that is not in your self-interest, because anything from which you derive happiness is in your self-interest!

	22-07-2004 05:21									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: what makes me happy isn't in my self-interest in the first place. But you know it makes you happy and being happy is in your self interest. So you are doing it in your self-interest (ie, to be happy).

But you're forgeting that being happy isn't in my self interest in this case.

	22-07-2004 05:23									#123
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You can overdose on drugs in a quest for happiness. Is that in your self interest?

	22-07-2004 05:35									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: If happiness is derived through something that is not in your own self interest Happiness can't be derived from something that is not in your self-interest, because anything from which you derive happiness is in your self-interest!

Explain to me how not wanting a dog to suffer is in my own self interest.

You can't just say "because it makes you happy" because that doesn't explain how being happy in a dog not sufering is in my own interest.

For it to be in my own interest, I have to benefit from it some how and, again, benefiting through happiness that is in turn not derived by something which is in my own interest is not in my own self interest.


You are stuck in a feedback loop and are refusing to step out of it.

	22-07-2004 05:36									#125
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quote: But you're forgeting that being happy isn't in my self interest in this case.

Of course it is. Being happy is always in your self-interest.

quote: You can overdose on drugs in a quest for happiness. Is that in your self interest?

Actually, yes. The only reason you'd take all those drugs is self-interest. You want to guy super high, you want to be super happy. Or you can't take the world anymore and you want to die. It is in your self-interest to take those pills for either goal you want. If you die in your quest for happiness, you die. But you can't say it wasn't a self-interested action.

For the rest of the debate I'll defer to Kuciwalker since he seems to be on exactly the same page as me. Just imagine me saying 'ditto' .

	22-07-2004 05:38									#126
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quote: Explain to me how not wanting a dog to suffer is in my own self interest.

Because if the dog suffers you will be sad. It will make you feel worse. You take care of the dog because it makes you feel better. It is in your self interest to do things that make you feel better.

This is not hard. I don't understand how you CANNOT see how it isnt in your own self interest to take care of the pup.

Oh, NOW, I'll defer to Kuciwalker... I swear .

	22-07-2004 05:39									#127
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So you're saying overdosing is in your self interest? Ok. I think we have firmly established that your position is ridiculous now, no need to go on any further.

Nice of you dump it all on Kucinich at this point, though.


EDIT:

quote: Because if the dog suffers you will be sad. It will make you feel worse. You take care of the dog because it makes you feel better. It is in your self interest to do things that make you feel better. This is not hard. I don't understand how you CANNOT see how it isnt in your own self interest to take care of the pup.

Yes, it isn't hard. When you completely ignore my argument and even remove the points that refute you from the quote you are replying to.

	22-07-2004 05:41									#128
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Why is it ridiculous? It is quite obvious. You are taking all those drugs for a reason. You aren't doing it unconsciously. You want to take all those drugs. Therefore, it is a self-interested action. Overdosing is a consequence of those self-interested actions.

Why can't self-interested actions be self-destructive as well? Drug use is a self-interested action (above most other things) and yet is self-destructive. If you don't believe that then the only ridiculous position is yours.

Have you never heard of people saying of them who committed suicide "How selfish of them?"

Last edited by Imran Siddiqui on 22-07-2004 at 05:51

	22-07-2004 05:46									#129
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quote: completely ignore my argument and even remove the points that refute you from the quote you are replying to.

I'm not ignoring your arugment in any way, shape, or form. I'm pointing out how flawed your argument is.

Let's take the rest of your quote which you contend 'refute me'

quote: benefiting through happiness that is in turn not derived by something which is in my own interest is not in my own self interest.

You are benefiting (you admit it here) through happiness in an action which you believe is not in your own interest. But you BENEFIT THROUGH HAPPINESS! It IS in your own self interest, or else you wouldn't benefit through happiness through it.

	22-07-2004 05:53									#130
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quote: So you're saying overdosing is in your self interest?

Yes, at least your perceived self-interest. It makes you happier than the alternative (or you think it does), thus it has a higher utility, therefore taking it is in your perceived self-interest.

	22-07-2004 06:02									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Why can't self-interested actions be self-destructive as well? Drug use is a self-interested action (above most other things) and yet is self-destructive. If you don't believe that then the only ridiculous position is yours.

Yeah, why can't self destruction be in your self interest? Thats a good question.

quote: But you BENEFIT THROUGH HAPPINESS!

You, again, leave out a crucial point... it is happiness that isn't in your own interest.


Let's tackle this from the other angle. How is being saddened at the suffering of others selfish?

Oh wait, let me guess... 'dar, it's 'cause you ain't happy!'


I'll say it again, and every time you make a new post compltely ignoring it you can come back up here and look at it again and again and again, and ignore it over and over and over. If you are going to use happiness as an end-all be-all explanation to everything, you had better damn well look at the reason behind the happiness itself or it is meaningless.

	22-07-2004 06:03									#132
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quote: You, again, leave out a crucial point... it is happiness that isn't in your own interest.

Yes it is. It is the very definition of your self-interest, your happiness. Nothing is useful except for it's utility (duh), which is happiness.

	22-07-2004 06:05									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Oh, NOW, I'll defer to Kuciwalker... I swear .

Thanks a lot, dump it all on me, why don't ya?

	22-07-2004 06:16									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: You, again, leave out a crucial point... it is happiness that isn't in your own interest. Yes it is. It is the very definition of your self-interest, your happiness. Nothing is useful except for it's utility (duh), which is happiness.

Happiness is an emotion, it has no utility beyond rewarding you for actions.

Actions which, in this case, are not in your self interest.

	22-07-2004 06:21									#135
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quote: Happiness is an emotion, it has no utility beyond rewarding you for actions.

Happiness is utility.

	22-07-2004 06:23									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: People chose to do things that are not in their self-interest (perceived and real) all the time. If you CHOOSE to see the movie, you are doing it because it is in your self-interest to. You want to for some reason. To argue otherwise is to be totally idiotic.

All you are doing is declaring that what ever one choses to do is self-interest. People chose to ignore their needs and do something they want to do all the time. This frequently is not in their self-interest. Very often, this ends up hurting people. People frequently chose to do things that bring them harm. This is the opposite of self-interest.

	22-07-2004 06:25									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: Happiness is an emotion, it has no utility beyond rewarding you for actions. Happiness is utility.

	22-07-2004 06:25									#138
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: People chose to do things that are not in their self-interest (perceived and real) all the time. If you CHOOSE to see the movie, you are doing it because it is in your self-interest to. You want to for some reason. To argue otherwise is to be totally idiotic. All you are doing is declaring that what ever one choses to do is self-interest. People chose to ignore their needs and do something they want to do all the time. This frequently is not in their self-interest. Very often, this ends up hurting people. People frequently chose to do things that bring them harm. This is the opposite of self-interest.

They think it's in their self-interest, so the action is in their perceived self-interest.

	22-07-2004 06:25									#139
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quote: utility \U*til"i*ty\, n. [OE. utilite, F. utilit['e], L. utilitas, fr. utilis useful. See Utile.] 1. The quality or state of being useful; usefulness; production of good; profitableness to some valuable end; as, the utility of manure upon land; the utility of the sciences; the utility of medicines. The utility of the enterprises was, however, so great and obvious that all opposition proved useless. --Macaulay. 2. (Polit. Econ.) Adaptation to satisfy the desires or wants; intrinsic value. See Note under Value, 2. Value in use is utility, and nothing else, and in political economy should be called by that name and no other. --F. A. Walker. 3. Happiness; the greatest good, or happiness, of the greatest number, -- the foundation of utilitarianism. --J. S. Mill.

	22-07-2004 06:29									#140
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#2 doesn't mean happiness.

#3 is Mill's definition.

If you're going for a Millsian definition, you should state that from the begining. I'd stop arguing with you because I haven't read Mills yet.

	22-07-2004 06:30									#141
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quote: #2 doesn't mean happiness.

Desires or wants doesn't mean happiness? Maybe it doesn't mean happiness in the sense of contentedness, but it means happiness in the sense of perceived self-interest.

quote: #3 is Mill's definition. If you're going for a Millsian definition, you should state that from the begining. I'd stop arguing with you because I haven't read Mills yet.

We're debating philosophy, and I use the term utility. What else would I mean?

	22-07-2004 06:31									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: Happiness is an emotion, it has no utility beyond rewarding you for actions. Happiness is utility.

It is an emotion. An emotion, as I said, which has utility in rewarding you for your actions. It is not utility incarnate, however, because as you said previously (duh included) only something that is useful can have utility. For happiness to be utility incarnate, it would also have to have endless usefulless. But it's usefullness is rather limited... almost to the point of nonexistance, actually.

With the way you're going on you might aswell start worshiping the damn word.



But even if we where to go by what you are saying agree that 'only things which make you happy are usefull', that doesn't change the fact that doing things which aren't in your own self interest can make you happy.

Does that mean that anything that results in happiness is in your own self interest? Well, if you're stuck in a feedback loop, sure. But if you can seperate cause from effect, no.

	22-07-2004 06:31									#143
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Without reading this entire thread. How in bloody hell did a bad movie about a great book evolve into yet another philosophical discussion?

	22-07-2004 06:32									#144
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quote: It is an emotion. An emotion, as I said, which has utility in rewarding you for your actions. It is not utility incarnate, however, because as you said previously (duh included) only something that is useful can have utility.

Utility = happiness. Happiness = utility. Something is "useful" if it makes you happy.

I have to go to bed now, so I won't be on for about an hour.

	22-07-2004 06:33									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: Happiness is an emotion, it has no utility beyond rewarding you for actions. Happiness is utility.

Making choices that give short-term happiness, but in the long run are detrimental and will cause widespread unhappiness, are not utile. Utility is not short-sighted, it's a far-sighted approach.

So a decision that makes one happy now but will ultimately lead to greater hardship is not in one's self-interest.

And the Millsian definition only applies to the happiness of everyone, not an individual. Something is utile if it generates the most happiness for the most people. Some individual doing something because it makes him fill happy isn't necessarily utile, as he could be doing something that hurts a lot of others.

	22-07-2004 06:34									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker They think it's in their self-interest, so the action is in their perceived self-interest.

They may not believe its in their self-interest. People frequently do stuff they know is going to cause them trouble. They do it because it's fun or because they have difficulty with impulse control or any other number of reasons.

Furthermore, perceived self-interest isn't the same thing as self-interest. Perceived self-interest can result in something that is self-damaging. It is only very-rarely that something that is self-damaging is in your self-interest.

	22-07-2004 06:48									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: It is an emotion. An emotion, as I said, which has utility in rewarding you for your actions. It is not utility incarnate, however, because as you said previously (duh included) only something that is useful can have utility. Utility = happiness. Happiness = utility. Something is "useful" if it makes you happy.

That's pretty dodgy math.

When utility equals usefullness, for happiness to equal supreme utility it would also have to equal supreme usefullness. What is the usefullness of happiness? Very little, it is simply an emotion - a reward for your actions.


Of course, none of this changes the fact that happiness can be derived through things which are not in your own self interest. Is doing selfless acts for happiness which is derived through selflessness somehow selfish?

quote: I have to go to bed now, so I won't be on for about an hour.

You only sleep for an hour? That might explain these delusions.

	22-07-2004 09:11									#148
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara They may not believe its in their self-interest. People frequently do stuff they know is going to cause them trouble. They do it because it's fun or because they have difficulty with impulse control or any other number of reasons.

Exactly. They derive more happiness from immediate pleasure than the knowledge of future pleasure.

quote: Furthermore, perceived self-interest isn't the same thing as self-interest. Perceived self-interest can result in something that is self-damaging. It is only very-rarely that something that is self-damaging is in your self-interest.

Yes, but my point is NOT that everyone actually does what would maximize their happiness, but rather what they THINK will maximize their happiness (this should be obvious). And since I forget the original debate (probably something to do with altruism or whatever), this is all that's really important

	22-07-2004 09:15									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Yes, but my point is NOT that everyone actually does what would maximize their happiness, but rather what they THINK will maximize their happiness (this should be obvious).

And my point is you're wrong, that people do things in full knowledge that they are diminishing their maximal happiness for immediate gratification.

	22-07-2004 09:16									#150
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd That's pretty dodgy math. When utility equals usefullness, for happiness to equal supreme utility it would also have to equal supreme usefullness. What is the usefullness of happiness? Very little, it is simply an emotion - a reward for your actions.

Utility and usefulness, unless you specifically say towards some specific end (like, say, killing people; a weapon has a high "usefulness" there), is happiness. I challenge you to find any other meaningful (ie non-arbitrary) definition of the term.

quote: Of course, none of this changes the fact that happiness can be derived through things which are not in your own self interest.

No it can't! It's in your self-interest to be happier! Nothing more!

quote: Is doing selfless acts for happiness which is derived through selflessness somehow selfish?

You're the only one talking about selfishness. Self-interest != selfishness. Selfishness is benefitting your self-interest at the expense or in spite of someone else's self-interest. Since self-interests can coincide, and some people derive happiness from the happiness of others, selfishness clearly does not make up the whole of self-interested behavior.

quote: You only sleep for an hour?

No, but I have to wait for my parents to fall asleep to get back on the computer