27-07-2004 19:20									#31
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congrats Arrian!

And please don't let me think too much about trips to foreign continents, booked for 1 bed... sigh

DeepO

	27-07-2004 20:53									#32
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from H_E on the ISDG - this might be useful

quote: Proper method to Renegotiate Luxuries/Resources O.k., after the one problem with Luxury renegotiations with CFC and doing some stuff with my sim, Ihave found out the PROPER method for renegotiation Resources/Luxuries at the proper time, WITHOUT the other party losing them for a single turn. 1) do whatever Diplo things that are incoming ONLY (gold, tech, ect) from the civ in question as normal at the begining of turn, during the diplo phase. DO NOT send anything at this time. Exit and wait until the movement phase has begun. 2) During Movement Phase, go into that Civ's Diplo Screen and go to the active section and select the Items that need to be renegotiated. They will now Pop up into the New diplo screen area as a new thing being offered. 3) UNSELECT all items (what we are offering should now be totally blank) and EXIT the Diplo screen. 4) re-enter the diplo screen, select the items to send them as normal, accept and send.

	27-07-2004 21:53									#33
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well, I hope that works


................................


And congrats to Arrian

Way to go. How soons the wedding?

	28-07-2004 00:22									#34
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some stuff I didn't check when playing the save this morning:

- Lego does not have mass production. If I counted right, this means they slowed down research, as it was their 4th turn. Maybe they spotted that we sent ND combustion before they finished (as they were in their last turn and we needed the lux) and wanted to save beakers. Good... let them slow down some more for all I care

- another option would be that they're researching espionage

- other than that, no change in tech situation.

- I hope it's okay if I take this save, mobilize, and note the numbers somewhere... I need to do some planning. Nothing will get changed, no extra information gathered, but without a sim it's nearly impossible to see what we're going to make in terms of precise spt.

- I forgot last time to move back our pica galleon towards Sufa

DeepO

	28-07-2004 01:23									#35
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This mobilization, and counting is strange, it certainly does not update it's information correctly. Maybe next turn... anyway, you can actually count the shields, but once you add a worker to a city, it stays like it was beforehand? buggy code, take these results with a grain of salt.

Eli : cathedral in 3
no mob before cath finishes. 28 spt. Somehow, I can't spot how much it becomes with mob, but an educated guess is 38 spt. no possibility to get it to 40 spt, so it will strand at 33 spt for 3-turn tanks.

Inchon : aqua in 27
gets some shields from Eli, most likely.

WoC : Carrier in 1
111 spt in mob (80 without). by giving a mountain to Inchoff, and chaning terrain, it can get to 102 spt (105 also possible), ideal for tanks(1 turn), BS (2 turns), etc.

Inchoff : market in 2. (explorers next?)
very difficult to spot, as it needs the market first. Will get to 25 spt for sure, probably 30 spt.

D-ville : art in 2
in mob 56 spt. can give a couple of shields to SA, which don't need it. Can't take shields (perhaps it can, will have to check this once SA finishes the BM), but 60 spt is not that useful, it takes 5 turns for ships to go to Inchoff, and some 8 or so to get to Hurricane. It's role as a shipwarf is over.

Santa Ana : Battlefield Medicine in 3. (Tanks next)
52 spt without mob, somewhere around 70 with (can't check exactly). either needs some knight spending to 1-turn tanks, or it gives a bunch of tiles to neighbours to get to 50 spt.

Blizzard : destroyer in 2.
30 spt without, 44 spt with. Can use some tiles from SA to get to 50 spt, or builds 3-turn destroyers.

Monsoon : art in 1
58 spt in mob. It could give a tile to Arashi if necessary. taking one is not so ideal, as it's on the wrong side of the continent to work as a shipwharf

Arashi : art in 2
50 spt in mob. Ideal for tanks

WW : art in 1
28 spt in mob. Not ideal for much 4-turn tanks can work, but at the loss of 3 spt. it could take a tile from Tempest to get to 30 spt, but that will be at the cost of 9bpt in Tempest, while making it more prone for pollution.

Tempest : art in 1
104 spt in mob. Could build a worker, help out WW, and be at a perfect 100 spt

SS: settler in 5
8spt without mob, and as we'll build a couple more settlers here, it will stay that way

Hurricane : transport in 1.
46spt without mob. guessing at 63 spt with... relatively okay for destroyers.

OG : art in 1
30 spt in. first a couple of destroyers, perhaps, after that tanks with rushing?

EotS : art in 1
106 spt in mob. by building one worker, could get to 100 spt

Bolderberg :art in 1
60 spt in mob. destroyers, tanks later? alternatively, it could give a tile to OG, making that one at least 33 spt, and still remaining above 50 spt. Maybe once we've got enough ships this will be best.

Cyclone: worker in 1
needs one worker added, and an extra tile to get to 1-turn explorers. Alternatively, it could build a lib there first, as with the extra tiles it works, and the loss in Tempest and EotS we migth want to compensate our situation a little. nah...

Tornado : destroyer in 3.
40 spt... perfect for destroyers or arts

Typhoon : destroyer in 1 (destroyer next, eta 226)
56 spt. tanks... could also give a tile to Cyclone for precisely 50 spt.... maybe that's better then EotS, as it won't lose bpt.

Sufa : market in 90
somewhere around the end of this game, it could possible go to 2 spt in mob

DeepO

	28-07-2004 01:32									#36
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taking all this together, and I can build 7.66 tanks per turn, and .83 destroyer. Alternatively, building 6.66 tanks per turn (tpt?) means an extra half BS...

in 17 turns, we can thus build an additional 14 destroyers, and 130 tanks and marines. each bomber, art or inf costs us a tank. each sub costs us a DD. each carrier costs us 2 DDs, and each BS costs us 2 tanks.

Generals, you've got your numbers!

(oh, and take some losses into account from pollution)
(and something else: at least a few of those tanks are either deliverd through chaining, or part of our reinforcements.)

DeepO

	28-07-2004 01:51									#37
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BTW, I see in F11 we're now producing 901 spt... I'm not sure how accurate that is, as some cities are still showing pre-mob figures.

And comments on Tempest and EotS (whether building a worker there is good or not) are certainly appreciated. Also, Arashi is still running with an entertainer.
The advantage of building workers:
- more shields to other cities, so more units in the end
- fewer risks of unhappiness
disdavd:
- pollution risk increases
- bpt goes down.

I'm not sure. I'm considering a worker in Tempest, but not one in EotS...

DeepO

	28-07-2004 02:04									#38
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hum... the F11 is not so good actually. You could not spot the decrease in culture immediately, but how are 2 civs that are competing for MFG not spot that all of a sudden, some other team passed both of them? 901 spt takes us to first spot

This will also make a precise calculation of the spt of Lego and GoW possible, but I won't do that now... next save we'll officially be in mob, it makes it more clean than to investigate it now.

DeepO

	28-07-2004 03:15									#39
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some more calcs: we can have computers in turn 238, 237 in case we somehow find 80 beakers over the course of 7 turns (I doubt it). We will need chaining to deliver our MI to Legoland, but considering the gains, it will be worth it to spend some additional destroyers to protect our chain.

238 for computers, makes at least another 15 turns to get to MA, or 253. In 254, we can have MA, although I doubt we can have both the finance and the beaker output needed for this feat. By that time, we're going to suffer seriously from WW, maybe even up to half our budget will be going that way. And, GoW can, as it is not going to mobilize, prebuild on the SETI program. I'm hoping they will be tempted to go for the Internet, as it will keep them from getting nukes. I doubt it though.

Besides, I vaguely remember there was a catch with MA, don't we need rocketry for the alu?

DeepO

	28-07-2004 03:37									#40
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yes, we need rocketry for AL.

OK, as to the numbers, 40 Marines for the first wave,


How many transports, DeepO?

	28-07-2004 03:54									#41
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I thought 22... I notced that before thinking of Mob, so there is little reason this has changed. This could be increased rather easily next turn, though, at the expense of DDs or tanks.

Oh, and I was thinking: 10 defenders in each city? That's going to be a lot... 40 marines will get us there for certain, most likely taking a carrier more with 4 bombers will outweigh the 6 marines it will cost. Or we can attack to neighbouring cities, of course, in case we get lucky and have marines to spare

DeepO

	28-07-2004 03:58									#42
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Well if WW get too bad we are religious.

	28-07-2004 04:04									#43
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good point! Where would the soft spot be... we currently have some 1000 bpt max income. That's something like 700 bpt under monarchy? So, once we hit 30% lux on our slider, we should consider it (depends on the length of war), once we hit 40% there is little gain in continuing being a rep.

All hail the King

DeepO

	28-07-2004 04:16									#44
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DeepO, If we fail to land, then we have lost this game. We will have to rebuild that part of our force.

And personally, I would like 2 stacks of 30 marines + 35 tanks, and we can hit Lego in 2 positions, from forkmouth to Abilene, but try to get the overlap so that both can hit QM. While we can't achieve a breakthrough as easily, Lego will have no chance if we do land.

If we hit QM and FM, we could pincer Sandonorico and try to cut off their oil. While I would prefer to take their rubber, it could be anywhere.

Last edited by Krill on 28-07-2004 at 04:22

	28-07-2004 13:40									#45
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Oh, I agree... there is no way we can afford to fail our invasion. We need a beach head, without any possible failure. However, look at our defenses: we currently have, in the best of cities, 5 rifles (which will get infs soon enough). Assuming both us and GoW can threaten 8 cities simultanously, I wonder if 10 infs is a realistic number.

And even then: we're going to bombard the city first, our DDs are partly built for that. Add at least a couple of bombers from a carrier, and the city will be weaken. I wonder if it wasn't a better idea to include one more carrier, and weaken them further... maybe not at the expense of marines, but at the expense of tanks.

A double attack on Lego... I don't know. By concentrating on one spot, we can make sure they're not able to counterattack next turn, by a combination of pillaging and bombardment. I doubt that with our limited forces we can guarantee that if we go for two beaches. Also, there is the problem of troop conservation: marines fall pretty quickly, and once used are hardly reuseable. Tanks retreat, and can be healed

DeepO

	28-07-2004 19:48									#46
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I would not use two fronts. That is something to be done when you know the troop disposition of the target. We do not know that and want to be sure to keep our loses down.

Split they could be attacked enmasse and we lose one front and then the other would be in danger. This PTW so they can bombard us, but not kill any with out using troops. Most likely they will not have enough bombardment units to drop the whole stack to 1 or 2 hit points. This means attacking will cost them units.

	28-07-2004 20:18									#47
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wow... obvious oversight of me: Lego is of course going for flight, not for marines first. No wonder we didn't detect it before. We can anticipate quite a few bombers and fighters, most likely...

DeepO

	28-07-2004 20:20									#48
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And still, that won't give them enough bombarding to get some 150 units to 1 or 2 hp

But we better take enough fighters with us, to shoot down some of their bombers

DeepO

	28-07-2004 21:08									#49
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Wishing we had flak units or mobile sams.

	29-07-2004 04:56									#50
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regardless of who invades whom and what outcome, I can't wait to see the battles. A true rarity in a c3 game, to use all weapons to their utmost. fighters bombers, destroyers, subs, marines. This will be epic.