23-07-2004 02:36									#61
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Asher, you must admit that the iPod has spread far wider than Apple's usual following.

	23-07-2004 02:46									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Asher, you must admit that the iPod has spread far wider than Apple's usual following.

It's spread to not only include the usual artsy people, but to include people desperate to be hip.

Either way, IBM would fail in that...

	23-07-2004 02:47									#63
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG darn, it's so easy to make millions of sales isnt it? it just needs some faith in believing your product can actually sell

It's all about brand image.

Apple's very successful at taking things, getting them insane press coverage, get great marketshare, and then **** it all up.

IBM is only successful, and only comfortable in, the much larger corporate market.

Apple is its polar opposite. It's only successful in the anti-corporate market. With pinko commies or artists.

Now which side of that fence can appeal to the "hip" trend-zombie crowd better than the other?

	23-07-2004 02:48									#64
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quote: Either way, IBM would fail in that...

Maybe IBM should establish a hip brand, that would rebrand it's products.

	23-07-2004 02:50									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel quote: Either way, IBM would fail in that... Maybe IBM should establish a hip brand, that would rebrand it's products.

Why should it?

It's moving away from products into services.

It could undermine its corporate image to make trendy things.

I know most people don't see this, but the revenue and profit the iPod make is ridiculously small to companies like IBM. IBM makes more money in more lucrative areas, like $10M servers...

	23-07-2004 02:52									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon It's non-existent, but who cares. Anyway, I was the idiot who decided not to spend the extra $100 dollars in 2000 to buy a mac with a firewire port (because I didn't want to do digital video) and so can't use an ipod. I guess I'll wait until next year when I get a new computer.

Err... it's called an upgrade card?

	23-07-2004 02:58									#67
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quote: It could undermine its corporate image to make trendy things.

That's the point of having a completely different brand, and branding for specific market nieches.

	23-07-2004 03:00									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel That's the point of having a completely different brand, and branding for specific market nieches.

I don't understand why they'd waste resources going for a smaller market when they can go for newer, bigger markets (like they're doing now?)

It takes money and resources to go for new markets, and as far as markets go, the MP3 player market isn't large.

	23-07-2004 03:01									#69
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Just read through the rest of the thread... Agathon... with as much as you know about comps you could have easily just gotten an old PowerMac and upgraded it to the point of an iMac in 2000 and still be able to upgrade it today...

BTW, Asher... I'm still not sure I understand what your problem is with the iPod...

	23-07-2004 03:05									#70
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The iPod is a ripoff. Even at the new, lower price. It's technically inferior to most other players on the market in just about every way.

The people I see buying iPods are either Apple fans (makes sense), or otherwise complete airheads. The kind of people who wear GAP T-shirts or the now-popular "Triple-SOUL" T-shirts. The kind of people who rice up their Civics and get "BBS" stickers on their windshields even though they don't have BBS wheels. The kind of people who'll buy a Cadillac Escalade.

They make me cringe.

	23-07-2004 03:06									#71
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quote: I don't understand why they'd waste resources going for a smaller market when they can go for newer, bigger markets (like they're doing now?) It takes money and resources to go for new markets, and as far as markets go, the MP3 player market isn't large.

I wasn't talking about the iPod in particular. The opportunities are so wide... Consumer electronics, for example... IBM could afford to take over a strong consumer electronics company. I am not against going to services, but generally, IBM has no reason to fear it's image as a "cold" bussiness company. It's a powerful image in itself, in the bussiness sector. All I am saying is that it's not a limiting factor, not an unsurmountable, really.

	23-07-2004 03:16									#72
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quote: Do you honestly see lots of kids wearing square-black boxes with the IBM brand on it, being hip?

Duh! They would market it through a created subsidiary with a new and cool name.

	23-07-2004 03:16									#73
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Everyone and their dog is trying to enter the consumer electronics industry. It's competitive and profit margins are shrinking. It's a bad market for a company like IBM to join in.

IBM thrives in really, really expensive and unique stuff. Like software which helps banks get up to date on the latest accounting laws. How many other people made software for that? They can charge a fortune for it.

IBM doesn't do well when it's in a crowded market, like PCs...

	23-07-2004 03:18									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Duh! They would market it through a created subsidiary with a new and cool name.

Like Lexmark?

It's stupid for a company like IBM to join a small market dominated by image rather than functionality. IBM is all about functionality.

It's just not a logical place for them to be. They're the kind of people to make components for MP3 players, not the MP3 players itself...they supply to businesses, not consumers.

History lesson: What happened every time IBM tried selling to consumers?

	23-07-2004 03:19									#75
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quote: Err... it's called an upgrade card?

Yeah, but it's too expensive for something I don't really care about. I find it difficult to listen to music while walking, due to environmental noise. And don't start on those noise cancellation headphones, I think they make the music sound flat.

Besides, the wife wanted an imac, and she was paying for half of it.

	23-07-2004 03:20									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Yeah, but it's too expensive for something I don't really care about. I find it difficult to listen to music while walking, due to environmental noise. And don't start on those noise cancellation headphones, I think they make the music sound flat. Besides, the wife wanted an imac, and she was paying for half of it.

So really you were stupid enough not to pay $50 more for Firewire?

	23-07-2004 03:21									#77
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Just shows how useless and inflexible IBM is.

	23-07-2004 03:25									#78
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quote: So really you were stupid enough not to pay $50 more for Firewire?

It was a bit more than that.

And this was back in 2000 where the only use for firewire was digital video and removable hard drives.

I don't want or need a removal hard drive and I will never buy a digital video camera or any other kind of video camera for that matter. Video cameras are used to molest and annoy people at what are otherwise festive occasions, or to make films of people's children eating dirt or performing tricks like they were trained animals. I have no desire to do any of these things.

I'll probably buy an ipod with my next mac, but I already have a perfectly good discman that does the job well enough for now.

	23-07-2004 03:25									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Just shows how useless and inflexible IBM is.

They could do it, it's just stupid to.

Why go for a $500M market with 15 companies competing when you could go for a $8B market with 2 or 3?

	23-07-2004 03:29									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Asher The iPod is a ripoff. Even at the new, lower price. It's technically inferior to most other players on the market in just about every way. The people I see buying iPods are either Apple fans (makes sense), or otherwise complete airheads. The kind of people who wear GAP T-shirts or the now-popular "Triple-SOUL" T-shirts. The kind of people who rice up their Civics and get "BBS" stickers on their windshields even though they don't have BBS wheels. The kind of people who'll buy a Cadillac Escalade. They make me cringe.

Ah. The people with more money than brains, eh?

I know my first MP3 player will be integrated into my next PDA with simply a FM transmitter attached to it, that's the only place I can see wanting music on the go anyway since I have a car that doesn't have a CD player: while traveling. Oh, and look, the PDA also can do everything the iPod can, but better. (Thinking about a CompactPC or whatever the Windows OS PDAs are called).

quote: Originally posted by Agathon Besides, the wife wanted an imac, and she was paying for half of it.

Hang on, hang on! While this majorly thread-jacks, you and your wife don't pool your money for the common good of your family but keep everything seperate, or did I just read WAY too much into that statement?

	23-07-2004 03:30									#81
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Why not go for both?

If Apple, a computer company run by ex-hippies can spin itself into a music business, then why not? It's making them money.

But this is just more of your tiresome Apple bashing. Of course it is a conspiracy and only artsy weirdos want to buy ipods (although Shaquille O'Neal strikes me as on the periphery of the artsy weirdo scene).

I saw an elderly gentleman in a suit using an ipod the other day. Perhaps he is a beatnik in his spare time.

	23-07-2004 03:36									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Why not go for both? If Apple, a computer company run by ex-hippies can spin itself into a music business, then why not? It's making them money.

It's making them piddly money.

For IBM to enter that market they'd need to invest money and resources. IBM's investing TONS of money entering new market, but not tiny consumer electronics markets -- things like lifesciences, theoretical physics, etc. Huge markets for huge multinational corporations and governments.

So that's why they don't go for both. A company's assets and resources are fixed, and the shareholders only want so much money going to expansion at any given time...

	23-07-2004 03:37									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon But this is just more of your tiresome Apple bashing. Of course it is a conspiracy and only artsy weirdos want to buy ipods (although Shaquille O'Neal strikes me as on the periphery of the artsy weirdo scene).

No, people with more money than sense buy them.

Artsy weirdos make up a huge portion of that. But stupid celebs (he's a frickin' basketball player) are part of it, too.

	23-07-2004 03:54									#84
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Ah I see, you have to be a complete idiot to buy anything that you don't like.

Why do you care so much about what other people buy anyway? I'm quite happy for people to suffer under Microsoft's products if they buy them. That's their problem - just the same as if they buy Britney Spears albums or whatever it is you teenyboppers love now.

The substance of this thread is that, for whatever reason, Apple got the jump on the portable music player market.

Skippedy-doo-da. Who cares?

	23-07-2004 03:55									#85
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I'm a nice person, I care.

I'm trying to help you, but the Force is strong within you.

	23-07-2004 04:02									#86
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quote: I'm a nice person, I care.

So, let me get this straight.

You want to save people from using what you consider to be crappy, bug ridden products and get them to use Microsoft products (particularly Windows) instead?

****ing Hell...

	23-07-2004 04:10									#87
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Who said anything about bug ridden?

I'm telling people not to waste their money on Apple. They don't make a single thing reasonably priced.

Windows is fine, I see a lot less problems daily on Windows trhan I do on OS X.

And they charge $99 for an upgrade every 4-5 years, Apple charges $129 yearly.

If Mac users could do math, they'd figure it out.

	23-07-2004 04:17									#88
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quote: And they charge $99 for an upgrade every 4-5 years, Apple charges $129 yearly

Win 95, Win 98, Win 98SE, WinME, WinXP

Longhorn isn't out only because they can't get it to work properly. That's why you are all waiting.

	23-07-2004 04:23									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Win 95, Win 98, Win 98SE, WinME, WinXP Longhorn isn't out only because they can't get it to work properly. That's why you are all waiting.

Win98SE was Windows 98 with bundled patches that you could download for free -- it was a refresh, if you had Win98 and patched for free from the internet you effectively had Win98SE.

That was really Win95 -> Win98 -> WinMe over a 5 year period, but no one really updated to WinMe.

It doesn't matter anyway.

2001: Windows XP
2005/2006: Windows Longhorn

Get it?

	23-07-2004 05:08									#90
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quote: But this is just more of your tiresome Apple bashing. Of course it is a conspiracy and only artsy weirdos want to buy ipods (although Shaquille O'Neal strikes me as on the periphery of the artsy weirdo scene). I saw an elderly gentleman in a suit using an ipod the other day. Perhaps he is a beatnik in his spare time.

neither of them seem to me to be to be the type who honestly appreciate good technology and know much about computing and digital convergence, let alone other random and useful gadgets.