23-07-2004 20:16									#1
	Fifth tech to research? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

After Information Networks we will have the following techs available for research. Planetary Networks unfortunately is not one of them.

• Progenitor Psych
  
• Biogenetics
  
• Industrial Base
  
• Social Psych
  
• Applied Physics

	24-07-2004 05:41									#2
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Obviously, if Plan Nets is available, go for that.

Otherwise I vote for Applied Physics

	24-07-2004 12:46									#3
	Put an end to popups!

I don't really see the point in going for applied physics unless we are immediately then going to go for NLmath. Because we definitely won't be able to take down Yang's perimeters with just lasers, and I doubt we'll be within striking distance of any of the others any time soon. With NLmath, there's a chance of taking on Yang (as long as he doesn't get plasma armor), but it still seems that our chances for success would be pretty slim. Or maybe I'm just being too pessimistic. Let's see...

With our nifty CC, any impact rovers we built would be at least veteran - thus, our impact rovers will actually be more like 5-1.25-2 rovers. I suppose those could take on a few green 1-2-1's inside perimeters. But then there's the question of how fast can be build a decent size force (4 or 5 minimum, I would say)? Impact rovers are 4 min rows, or 44 mins with our current ind rating. Let's assume in 10 years we have at least 5 bases that we can devote to rover production. With each base producing about 4-5 min/turn, we'd have to wait another 7-10 years for our force to be ready. In addition, only 1 out of those 5 rovers would be elite, the rest would be disciplined.

Best-case scenario: Yang doesn't even have ind base yet (by 2140 - this seems to me to be the earliest possible time that we could be assaulting his bases with impact rovers. Not very likely that he won't have ind base yet). We plow right through him, make him a submissive, and benefit greatly from our gamble.

Middle-of-the-road scenario: Yang has ind base, but all of his units are green. We lose a few rovers, but we manage to capture a few cities. We make decent gains. Overall, the operation pays off.

Slightly worse scenario (the most likely one I think): Yang only has ind base, but he has a sizable number of base garrisons per base (2 or 3) and some of his units are hardened from command centers, and he has a few sensors around. We could probably manage to capture 1 or 2 bases if we consolidated our 5 impact rovers, but we'd lose 3 or 4 of them in the process, and capturing more bases or getting Yang to end the conflict on favorable terms for us would not be very likely. In this case, we would make a slight gain, but measured against what else we could have gained had we diverted our research and resources to something else (like infrastructure, etc.) this campaign would be pretty dissapointing, and would actually make us weaker in the long run.

Worst-case-scenario: Yang has plasma armor. (there's actually a good possibility of this. You know how the AI is a warmonger, especially AI Yang). We're screwed, and we know it. We pilot our rovers back to our bases with our tails between our legs, and realize that all of our military research and production has been all for naught.

The possibility of the last two options is why I vote for going the roughly social psych --> ethical calculus --> gene splicing --> intellectual integrity sort of restriction-lifting, popboom tech beeline with some added goodies along the way.

	24-07-2004 17:56									#4
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

While the reasoning is good, it's treating Applied Physics as an end in itself. If the same arguments were used with Soc Psych, then App Phys would be a no-brainer (Soc Psych does nothing for our troops going up against Yang et al)

But just as Soc Psych leads to Ethical Calculus and Doc Loyalty (Int Int and the CDF's prereqs), so too does Applied Physics lead to Nonlinear Math and High Energy Chemistry (after Ind Base), both highly valuable military techs

I just think that the probability of trading for Soc Psych and Ethical Calculus - non threatening techs - is far more likely than trading for Impact Weapons or Plasma Armor

(plus, explore and conquer techs are never popped when getting a tech thru podpops, whereas build techs are the most frequent, followed by discover. So the odds of getting Soc Psych (or Ind base) through a podpop are pretty good)

I'm not rabidly averse to Soc Psych as our next tech, just that I feel Applied Physics is a better route to go

	24-07-2004 19:28									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I feel that to win this game we really need to do the things we do best. I'm not sure we could hold our own in a building contest against the Gaians and the Morgans, so I'm not too keen to go down that road.

In fact, I believe our best chance is to hunt down Yang as soon as possible, which means going Applied Physics -> Non-Linear Math. I feel that we simply have to gamble on this one, since the alternative is a slow death at the hands of our industrial superiors...

And anyway, as Spartans, I believe it is our duty

	24-07-2004 21:55									#6
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Snoddasmannen I feel that we simply have to gamble on this one

We could always wait until we have Planetary Networks, built some probes and have infiltrated Yang before we decide whether or not we're going to start a military build-up to conquer him. That would we would avoid the scenario Zeiter describes.

As for the current tech, both AppPhys and SocPsych are fine by me, as long as we don't immediately have to use that tech to start a military build-up without first knowing what we're getting into.

	24-07-2004 22:24									#7
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I'd be perfectly willing to take on Yang if I think we could do it, or even if there was a decent probability of us being successful, but I'm just not that confident about going up against him with impact weapons. Also, here are three more things to consider:

*Considering AI Yang's warmongerer tendencies, it's very likely that we could just probe those conquer techs away from him. And just imagine this: Let's say we research up to gene splicing on our own. Then, we probe high energy chemistry from Yang. Suddenly, we are only techs away from missle weapons and needlejets!

*The last thing we want to do is to deplete ourselves while weakening Yang, but not being able to fully conquer him, making him a nice juicy target for the others later on.

*If Yang is as close to them as he is to us, then Yang is bound to keep the builders on their feet. So perhaps having a strong Yang is in our best interests, because it would occasionally divert the builder's attention from infrastructure to defense.

I have another question: If we want more bases, why not just build more? Conquering the perimetered Hiverian bases seems a bit costly for the end rewards (a few more badly-terraformed, poorly developed bases.)

I agree that, in general, we should do what we do best: conquer. And if we could find another target without those pesky perimeters, then I'd be all for it. Perhaps our foil scouts will find Zakharov on the island just next door?

	25-07-2004 07:45									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Well, it looks like I'm in the extreme minority, so it looks like applied physics it is, which I guess also has its merits. Just the fact that we have some advanced weaponry may cause the other human factions to be a little more friendly towards us when we meet them.

	25-07-2004 12:30									#9
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Maniac We could always wait until we have Planetary Networks, built some probes and have infiltrated Yang before we decide whether or not we're going to start a military build-up to conquer him. That would we would avoid the scenario Zeiter describes.

quote: Zeiter I'd be perfectly willing to take on Yang if I think we could do it, or even if there was a decent probability of us being successful, but I'm just not that confident about going up against him with impact weapons. Also, here are three more things to consider: ...

Well alright ..... I will grudgingly concede that you guys have a point

We should pick our battles, so let's wait until we have a fair idea of what our options are...

But I still feel that we should be delibarately preparing for a future war, so that it won't take too long to strike if we find Morgan or Zakharov next door. Thus I'm sticking to applied physics.

	26-07-2004 05:30									#10
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Zeiter Well, it looks like I'm in the extreme minority, so it looks like applied physics it is, which I guess also has its merits. Just the fact that we have some advanced weaponry may cause the other human factions to be a little more friendly towards us when we meet them.

I'm thinking more like submissive

that's what I want

	26-07-2004 05:33									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Zeiter I'd be perfectly willing to take on Yang if I think we could do it, or even if there was a decent probability of us being successful, but I'm just not that confident about going up against him with impact weapons. Also, here are three more things to consider: *Considering AI Yang's warmongerer tendencies, it's very likely that we could just probe those conquer techs away from him. And just imagine this: Let's say we research up to gene splicing on our own. Then, we probe high energy chemistry from Yang. Suddenly, we are only techs away from missle weapons and needlejets! *The last thing we want to do is to deplete ourselves while weakening Yang, but not being able to fully conquer him, making him a nice juicy target for the others later on. *If Yang is as close to them as he is to us, then Yang is bound to keep the builders on their feet. So perhaps having a strong Yang is in our best interests, because it would occasionally divert the builder's attention from infrastructure to defense. I have another question: If we want more bases, why not just build more? Conquering the perimetered Hiverian bases seems a bit costly for the end rewards (a few more badly-terraformed, poorly developed bases.) I agree that, in general, we should do what we do best: conquer. And if we could find another target without those pesky perimeters, then I'd be all for it. Perhaps our foil scouts will find Zakharov on the island just next door?

I'm inclined to agree with your post almost fully. I'd rather beat up on human opponents anyways . I just hope the hive isn't in the way of them. We could try to ally with the hive and get passage through their territory, but that's a long way to travel. And I've never had much luck united the hive and the spartans. But who knows.

If hive is the only faction we can get at, well we may have to attack. But probing him first seems like a good idea, so we know what we're getting into.

	26-07-2004 05:39									#12
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Snoddasmannen I feel that to win this game we really need to do the things we do best. I'm not sure we could hold our own in a building contest against the Gaians and the Morgans, so I'm not too keen to go down that road. In fact, I believe our best chance is to hunt down Yang as soon as possible, which means going Applied Physics -> Non-Linear Math. I feel that we simply have to gamble on this one, since the alternative is a slow death at the hands of our industrial superiors... And anyway, as Spartans, I believe it is our duty

considering Morganites are already in free market. we have no hope of outbuilding these guys.

oh how I would love it if they were close to us.

	26-07-2004 15:12									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Dissident I'm inclined to agree with your post almost fully. I'd rather beat up on human opponents anyways . I just hope the hive isn't in the way of them. We could try to ally with the hive and get passage through their territory, but that's a long way to travel. And I've never had much luck united the hive and the spartans. But who knows.

We have Doctrine: Flexibility, so if necessary we can build some transports to invade another faction and bypass the Hive. That of course increases the cost and risk of an invasion though.

	26-07-2004 22:45									#14
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

too late for me to vote, but I would have voted for Applied Physics.

	27-07-2004 05:43									#15
	Suffering from ads?

i assume from Andemagne's post that Applied Physics was chosen, with which i agree. the Hive ALWAYS has military units to burn, so attacking them w/o probe would be risky. however, the path to Impactor would boost any future naval blockade/bombard efforts against any faction while we direct our research towards mid-game goals. btw, what are our mid-game goals? besides, the Morgans envy shiny coin where as Spartans like shiny guns