23-07-2004 22:35									#1
	Libertarianism and Social Darwinism Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

It seems that libertarianism is a political adaptation of the ideology underlying social Darwinism in that if you play by the rules and you end up losing you are screwed and undeserving of any government assistance and/or protection -- even if you lost out due to some unfair or unjustified element of the system.



Or am I talking out of my ass?

	23-07-2004 22:38									#2
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quote: even if you lost out due to some unfair or unjustified element of the system.

In libertarianism, there aren't unfair or unjustified elements of the system.

	23-07-2004 22:43									#3
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The extreme version of libertarism is what you describe, I'd say.

	23-07-2004 22:44									#4
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quote: In libertarianism, there aren't unfair or unjustified elements of the system.

Um... he is talking about unfairness in Capitalism (you know "Life's not fair") such as getting fired because you dated the boss's daughter or something.

	23-07-2004 22:48									#5
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That's not "unfair" (or at least not unjustified) - it's his money.

	23-07-2004 22:53									#6
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A Liberterian would say that the reason no one can or should be given STATE aid is because this would be using people's money without their approval to help others- a redistribution of wealth which they would label theft.

They are not against private charity, IE, people chosing to give aid on their own. So moraly we are not talking about a social darwinian system by design.

NOw, if private charity is really sufficient to care for folks, that is a question is realities vs moral systems- and liberterians are more concerned about moral systems.

	23-07-2004 22:54									#7
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quote: That's not "unfair" (or at least not unjustified) - it's his money.

So what. Doesn't mean it isn't fair! It could be his money all he wants, he has the right to be unfair as well.

	23-07-2004 22:56									#8
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I dunno. There may be some libertarians who believe in it for social darwinist reasons, but it seems likely that there's at least as many that are in it for other reasons. These include their weird notions of moral purity, their belief that we'd actually be better off under libertarianism, and constitution-hugging nationalism.

	23-07-2004 23:06									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: In libertarianism, there aren't unfair or unjustified elements of the system. Um... he is talking about unfairness in Capitalism (you know "Life's not fair") such as getting fired because you dated the boss's daughter or something.

I give this strawman a score of 2.3 out of 10.

	23-07-2004 23:07									#10
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quote: Originally posted by GePap A Liberterian would say that the reason no one can or should be given STATE aid is because this would be using people's money without their approval to help others- a redistribution of wealth which they would label theft. They are not against private charity, IE, people chosing to give aid on their own. So moraly we are not talking about a social darwinian system by design. NOw, if private charity is really sufficient to care for folks, that is a question is realities vs moral systems- and liberterians are more concerned about moral systems.

True -- I suppose social Darwinists are even more cold-hearted and cruel than libertarians by rejecting even the option of private charity organizations.

	23-07-2004 23:10									#11
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Social darwinists don't reject private charity at all! If you're capable of getting others to give you money, then you deserve it.

	23-07-2004 23:12									#12
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No -- would not the social ideological slant of the biological science behind "survival of the fittest" mean that to give any kind of charity to those in need of it is undermining better attainment of human society overall?

	23-07-2004 23:16									#13
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Social darwinists don't believe in survival of the fittest - in fact, if there were any correlation at all between monetary success and number of children, it'd be a negative on - but success of the fittest. And in this case, the relationship between success and fitness is that same as that of survival and fitness in darwin - those who succeed are the fittest, by definition.

	23-07-2004 23:23									#14
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What?

Ah, NO. Social Darwinists seek am overall improvement of the "fitness" of society- its not enought for the better to "succeed"- once they die, their money go off who knows how and could be very well be wasted by some lesser individual- they seek methods to improve the herd over time. It isn;t just about individual success- its about getting rid of the inferior once and for all.

	23-07-2004 23:24									#15
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But then those who are eeking out survival through charity are not successful and hence, not fit.

	23-07-2004 23:25									#16
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Nope - social darwinism is just like darwinism except with "survival" replaced with "success". Anyone capable of getting people to give money to them is successful. The "inferior" are the ones incapable of getting money.

	23-07-2004 23:25									#17
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really??

	23-07-2004 23:26									#18
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no, I'm just messing with you

	23-07-2004 23:26									#19
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun No -- would not the social ideological slant of the biological science behind "survival of the fittest" mean that to give any kind of charity to those in need of it is undermining better attainment of human society overall?

Let's keep in mind that "Social Darwinism" has very little to do with actual Darwinian evolutionary theory. There's nothing in biological Darwinism that precludes charity whatsoever. In fact, it's quite possible that altruism is an evolutionary trait designed to help the species.

	23-07-2004 23:27									#20
	Re: Libertarianism and Social Darwinism Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by MrFun It seems that libertarianism is a political adaptation of the ideology underlying social Darwinism in that if you play by the rules and you end up losing you are screwed and undeserving of any government assistance and/or protection -- even if you lost out due to some unfair or unjustified element of the system. Or am I talking out of my ass?

They really have no connection. However, you might conclude that someone who believes in Social Darwinism would be more likely to be a Libertarian, but then they might be a Fascist or Republican too.

	23-07-2004 23:27									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Let's keep in mind that "Social Darwinism" has very little to do with actual Darwinian evolutionary theory. There's nothing in biological Darwinism that precludes charity whatsoever. In fact, it's quite possible that altruism is an evolutionary trait designed to help the species.

You're preaching to the choir Boris -- I'm very much familiar with this part of history.

	23-07-2004 23:29									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Nope - social darwinism is just like darwinism except with "survival" replaced with "success". Anyone capable of getting people to give money to them is successful. The "inferior" are the ones incapable of getting money.

Which is fine except that money is an arbitrary measure of success- as compared to a much more concrete one of # of children. A successful couple that dies childless has done nothing to advance the cause of the species or the society by default.

One reason social darwinist were such fans of eugenics

	23-07-2004 23:31									#23
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Which is fine except that money is an arbitrary measure of success- as compared to a much more concrete one of # of children.

Well, then, the poor tend to have more kids, so they're more "successful" in an evolutionary sense. But the rich tend to acquire more influence, which is today's measure of success.

	23-07-2004 23:31									#24
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun You're preaching to the choir Boris -- I'm very much familiar with this part of history.

But then your comment that "would not the social ideological slant of the biological science behind "survival of the fittest" mean that to give any kind of charity to those in need of it is undermining better attainment of human society overall?" is easily answered by this, as there's no necessary biological reason for such an ideological slant.

	23-07-2004 23:34									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: Originally posted by GePap Which is fine except that money is an arbitrary measure of success- as compared to a much more concrete one of # of children. Well, then, the poor tend to have more kids, so they're more "successful" in an evolutionary sense. But the rich tend to acquire more influence, which is today's measure of success.

Now the poor are a different species.

	23-07-2004 23:35									#26
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Huh?

	23-07-2004 23:37									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Well, then, the poor tend to have more kids, so they're more "successful" in an evolutionary sense. But the rich tend to acquire more influence, which is today's measure of success.

Not for a social darwinist, which is the point.

	23-07-2004 23:39									#28
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Then a social darwinist is just somoene who's saying "let evolution take its course", because those who reproduce ARE more fit.

	23-07-2004 23:47									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Then a social darwinist is just somoene who's saying "let evolution take its course", because those who reproduce ARE more fit.

A social darwinist believes that one type of person is superior to other types of people, and that the superior type should survive. It's not necessary for a social darwist to 'let nature take it's course.' In fact they often don't advocate that.

	23-07-2004 23:49									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Then a social darwinist is just somoene who's saying "let evolution take its course", because those who reproduce ARE more fit.

NO. A social darwinist is someone who thinks the notions of "natural selection" should apply to human beings in the sense that the "Fit" are allowed to breed- they differ from simply darwinists in that the selection categories would be socially created. Hence society should only let X group breed, and should actively discourage unwated groups (like the poor) from multiplying.

This is why Boris said Social Darwinism has little to do with real darwinism.