24-07-2004 05:47									#1
	Why is there a general sneering going on east to west? Suffering from ads?

Inspired by patikis' comments in LeftHand's thread, why do Europeans see North Americans as being cultureless and backwards?

As it regards Americans, people will usually point to current politics as the reason, but this has been going on since this continent was first colonized in the early 17th century.

Whats more, alot of North Americans (especially Canadians) believe this nonsense and think we have nothing to offer as far as culture and tradition, while the opposite is clearly true.

So, Euros et al, Iraq war and GWB aside, why do you think we're all just a bunch of cookie-cutter provincials on this side of the world? And North Americans, why do you believe it?

Discuss.

	24-07-2004 05:52									#2
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not really, jimmy... during the 18th and early 19th century, the general European view of the Americas was based on the noble savage and the benjamin franklin sort of pragmatic genius colonial, both of which were very positive stereotypes.

	24-07-2004 05:59									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer not really, jimmy... during the 18th and early 19th century, the general European view of the Americas was based on the noble savage and the benjamin franklin sort of pragmatic genius colonial, both of which were very positive stereotypes.

Obviously we're not seen as entirely bad, otherwise no one would have come here... but I think there has always been an underlying thought that we are nothing but stupid pig farmers.

	24-07-2004 06:12									#4
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That is because you have only bad culture, and all of your traditions suck! There I said it .

I think in all seriousness it's to do (in the UK) with the traditional perception of the Jacobites, many of whom formed the first pilgrim immigrants to North America, and the perception, real or not, if your nations stubborness, self-righteousness, perceived ill-consideration, desperately ultra-conservative attitudes and Alabama. Note that is all a question of perception not a statement of fact.

	24-07-2004 06:20									#5
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but the early colonists were not mostly jacobite... there were plenty of puritan parliamentarians among them. hence the colonies' early pro-democratic sentiments.

	24-07-2004 06:32									#6
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I see north america as being cultureless and backwards, and I live here. While Europe, of course, is cultured and backwards.

	24-07-2004 06:35									#7
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quote: That is because you have only bad culture, and all of your traditions suck!

Whether you meant it or not (I suspect you were being sarcastic), this is exactly the sentiment I am talking about.

And Albert is correct, it wasn't just one group that came over, so saying that it was because of an old stereotype of a group in Europe isn't true.

	24-07-2004 06:37									#8
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quote: I see north america as being cultureless and backwards

Notice I said "especially Canadians" in my first post. Why do you feel this way?

I suspect these notions coming from a North American comes from lack of education regarding our history of the Colonial period (basically everything before the AmRev, since it essentially created the US and Canada as a result).

	24-07-2004 06:42									#9
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Europe has thousands of years of history.Canada and the USA have no real history, and what they do have is inherited from europe.

The native culture of north america - which was rich - has been more or less destroyed. What we're left with is few hundred years of history made up by people from other parts of the world, and mostly europe. (which gives even more reason for them to hold the view that north america lacks any sort of distinct culture or heritage)

I think it's completely right to say north america lacks culture and tradition. It doesn't mean that there aren't bits to be discovered, but for the most part there is either a void or an amalgimation of foreign cultures.

	24-07-2004 06:50									#10
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd Europe has thousands of years of history.Canada and the USA have no real history, and what they do have is inherited from europe. The native culture of north america - which was rich - has been more or less destroyed. What we're left with is few hundred years of history made up by people from other parts of the world, and mostly europe. (which gives even more reason for them to hold the view that north america lacks any sort of distinct culture or heritage) I think it's completely right to say north america lacks culture and tradition. It doesn't mean that there aren't bits to be discovered, but for the most part there is either a void or an amalgimation of foreign cultures.

Well, exactly... since we're essentially Europeans, and if we have no culture or traditions, that would mean they don't either.

And we have history from, pretty much, 1600 - present. Thats 400 years, nothing to laugh at. How much do you know about our colonial history other than that "columbus sailed the ocean blue", and that the pilgrims came a bit after. There are so many fascinating events and political intrigues in the early periods.

And maybe Europe has thousands of years of history, but its not like most of the continent did anything important until they started coming over here anyways.

Edit: Ludd, I truly pity your self loathing. You must really feel like you come from nothing.

	24-07-2004 06:59									#11
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn Well, exactly... since we're essentially Europeans, and if we have no culture or traditions, that would mean they don't either.

But the problem is that we aren't claiming to have a european history, we're claiming to have our own.

quote: And we have history from, pretty much, 1600 - present. Thats 400 years, nothing to laugh at. How much do you know about our colonial history other than that "columbus sailed the ocean blue", and that the pilgrims came a bit after. There are so many fascinating events and political intrigues in the early periods.

I'm no historian, but I probably do know more Canadian history than the average bum. Of course, going by this argument, even if we did have a vibrant and unique heritage, if it isn't being taught and passed on than it doesn't count for anything. (which is not to say that it couldn't, of course. But this is what we've got.)

But, again... that history is mostly just a colonial history. Not something we can really claim as being Canadian, or American, or whatever - it's European history. A history that was fueled by the destruction of the real north american cultures.

	24-07-2004 07:04									#12
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn Edit: Ludd, I truly pity your self loathing. You must really feel like you come from nothing.

Self loathing? I'm just being realistic.


Believe me, when I was a kid I was quite the flamboyant patriot. Had a real interest in Canadian history. I remember staying up through the night once watching a series of documentaries about the war of 1812 and wondering why i never heard about it in school. But that doesn't change the fact that our 'rich heritage' is just a bunch of europeans playing about leotards.

	24-07-2004 07:04									#13
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quote: But the problem is that we aren't claiming to have a european history, we're claiming to have our own.

But it is our own since we left Europe. European governments were largely uninvolved in the colonies until shortly before & after the American Revolution (in what became Canada). We did almost everything of our own volition, and I think we have a right to claim it as our own history.

But I guess by your reasoning, Europeans have no claim to their history since their ancestors came from western Russia and Eurasia thousands of years ago. Its all just Russian culture and history.

	24-07-2004 07:09									#14
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd But that doesn't change the fact that our 'rich heritage' is just a bunch of europeans playing about leotards.

But its not true, and not realistic. The history goes far further than 1812, and very very very early on peolpe started identifying themselves as "Americans", a term which was used in Europe as well. After the first generation, they weren't Europeans.

	24-07-2004 07:17									#15
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Because in Europe, aristocrats helped develop their native cultures. When the bourgeoisie rose there, they attempted to imitate the aristocrats, thus continuing and expanding on their culutres. America, on the other hand, never had an aristocracy. Our bourgeoisie had no one to imitate, and so when they rose up out of the common farmers of America, they weren't all that different.

Today, EUrope still has hundreds of years of cultureal history upon which to draw. We, on the other hand, have our culture renewed ever year so that corporations can sell us new stuff.

	24-07-2004 07:18									#16
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn But it is our own since we left Europe. European governments were largely uninvolved in the colonies until shortly before after the American Revolution (in what became Canada). We did almost everything of our own volition, and I think we have a right to claim it as our own history. [quote]But I guess by your reasoning, Europeans have no claim to their history since their ancestors came from western Russia and Eurasia thousands of years ago. Its all just Russian culture and history.

It's not black and white. Once a population has been in a place long enough it stops being foreign and starts beign native. I guess that happened for american colonies at the coming of independance. I think you could reasonably say that since independance you would start to have a uniquely north american history... only that's when immigration starts to kick in and you all of a sudden have a 'metling pot' of cultures from all over, making it again hard to claim anything as distinct, and even harder for any real identity to form. I think that has happened in the USA to some extent (although there are still many voids and foreign niches left behind). But not in Canada. And I don't think that's a bad thing.

We aren't a country with heritage and we shouldn't pretend to be one. I'd rather have a mish-mash of foreign and native cultures that acknowledges the fact that we're a society built on the destruction of native culture and tradition and introduction foregin culture, than to try and hemogenize under some sort of 'true canadian identity' that ignores the real history of north america.

EDIT: Of course, that isn't reality either. But that's what I would like to see. The real problem is the voids left by people with no history or identity here to relate to, after abandoning their real heritage.

	24-07-2004 07:21									#17
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn Inspired by patikis' comments in LeftHand's thread, why do Europeans see North Americans as being cultureless and backwards? Discuss.

Paiktis has a downer on any manifestation of Anglo-Saxon culture- American, British, Australian, he's happy to sneer at every aspect, from the food to the language itself, to 'our' racism, to the society, et cetera.


He isn't an exemplar of all Europeans (nor all Greeks for that matter) but just one bilious Timon of Athens or Thersites, flinging imprecations at the supposed barbarians.

I for one in the old Civ 3 days staunchly defended the concept of uniquely American culture and American contributions to world civilization- the quintessentially 20th Century world city was New York, a focal point for experimentation in the arts, and a haven for refugees.

The idea that North American contributions to culture were always looked askance at in Europe isn't true- Cotton Mather was the first member of the Royal Scoiety of Great Britain to have been born in Nnorth America:

'He was deeply interested in science and was the first native-born American to be a fellow of the Royal Society. He persuaded Zabdiel Boylston to inoculate against smallpox and supported the unpopular inoculation even when his life was threatened.'

http://www.bartleby.com/65/ma/Mather-C.html

Then there's the incredible popularity of jazz and blues in early twentieth century Paris, and the mania for the works of Edgar Allan Poe in 19th Century France.


As for Canadian contributions, one of the problems for Canadians is that people who aren't familiar with the different accent will keep on mistaking them for being American- Canadians such as William Shatner, Joni Mitchell, Neil Young, Lorne Greene are readily thought of as being from south of the border down Yanqui way.


Let's hear it for the North Americans:


Robertson Davies, Denys Arcand, Thomas Jefferson, Bill Reid, Cole Porter, Bessie Smith, Gertrude Stein, Robert Oppenheimer, Dorothy Parker, Muddy Waters and the Group of Seven.

http://www.mcmichael.com/group.htm


I North America.

	24-07-2004 07:21									#18
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It's kind of hard to take comments about America being cultureless from people just coming from seeing our movies and eating Big Macs.

	24-07-2004 07:26									#19
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd It's not black and white. Once a population has been in a place long enough it stops being foreign and starts beign native. I guess that happened for american colonies at the coming of independance. I think you could reasonably say that since independance you would start to have a uniquely north american history... only that's when immigration starts to kick in and you all of a sudden have a 'metling pot' of cultures from all over, making it again hard to claim anything as distinct, and even harder for any real identity to form. I think that has happened in the USA to some extent (although there are still many voids and foreign niches left behind). But not in Canada. And I don't think that's a bad thing. We aren't a country with heritage and we shouldn't pretend to be one. I'd rather have a mish-mash of foreign and native cultures that acknowledges the fact that we're a society built on the destruction of native culture and tradition and introduction foregin culture, than to try and hemogenize under some sort of 'true canadian identity' that ignores the real history of north america.

Since independece?? You've got to be kidding me, there was still 200 years of history before that.

And Ontario is not Canada. Ontario is very new, and was only really settled after the Am. Rev. What about Quebec? Newfoundland? Nova Scotia? They have had distinct cultures since well before the revolution. As has New England, New York, Pennsylvania, Virgina, etc, etc...

Like, you really think people in the colonies and people in Europe were exactly the same, or even close to the same (relatively speaking) prior to the revolution?

Someone must agree with me (besides Emerson and Thoreau).

	24-07-2004 07:30									#20
	Re: Re: Why is there a general sneering going on east to west? Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by molly bloom I North America.

Hell yeah! You've got the post revolution stuff down.

I would argue it goes alot further back too, from the late 1500's on.

	24-07-2004 07:33									#21
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quote: Canadians such as William Shatner, Joni Mitchell, Neil Young, Lorne Greene are readily thought of as being from south of the border down Yanqui way.

Dear Molly,

I sympathize with your attempt to defend North Americans as cultured people, but I don't think that giving as examples the stars of Star Trek, Battlestar Galactica and Bonanza! is really helping your cause.

Kudos for Joni Mitchell, but her vocal brillance is cancelled out by the woefully tuneless Shatner. (BTW my brother has all the Shatner albums)

	24-07-2004 07:36									#22
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn What about Quebec? Newfoundland? Nova Scotia? They have had distinct cultures since well before the revolution. As has New England, New York, Pennsylvania, Virgina, etc, etc...

Like I said before, I'm not saying there isn't any culture to be found... just that there is more void than substance, and that the culture we do have is diverse (and mostly inherited), and can't really be made into a 'Canadian identity'.

	24-07-2004 07:41									#23
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The idea that North America lacks culture and that the culture we do have is totally dependent on Euro culture is completely ridiculous.

Southern US American culture has dominated the world for the last 100 years. There is no such rich tradition that combines African, working class European, and American Indian culture, all together. This is completely indigenous to America.

Just an example, bluegrass, R&B, blues, jazz, all those are completley new creations that existed nowhere else in the world yet form the foundation of most of the world culture today. Louisiana and Tennessee alone have an amazing array of rich culture that continues to inspire.

Saying we are dependent on European culture is like saying Europeans were dependent on Roman culture.

	24-07-2004 07:42									#24
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We have a culture, it's just a lower class culture, as opposed to the upper class culture the Europeans have. Ours is the culture of farmers, hunters, and factory workers.

	24-07-2004 07:43									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Saying we are dependent on European culture is like saying Europeans were dependent on Roman culture.

...


Well, they are.

	24-07-2004 07:44									#26
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Also what most people refer to as "European culture" has also been more static and stagnant and institutionalized, and dominated by the elite class, wheras American culture comes from the working class.

	24-07-2004 07:44									#27
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Ours is the culture of farmers, hunters, and factory workers.

Which is usually a culture of "Drink 'till you're too drunk to realise you've got nothing else"

	24-07-2004 07:45									#28
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I think you should see more of the world, General Ludd.

	24-07-2004 07:46									#29
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara We have a culture, it's just a lower class culture, as opposed to the upper class culture the Europeans have. Ours is the culture of farmers, hunters, and factory workers.

Well said Commie.

	24-07-2004 07:48									#30
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I don't think that there is a major difference in the percentage of people who engage in cultural activities as opposed to mass market consumer crap (although it's not an exclusive distinction).

What is different is that in European countries and to a lesser extent in other non-American English speaking countries there is state funded public broadcasting and an increased role for the state in arts funding.

While, the difference is somewhat offset by the American tradition of philanthropy, things that aren't mass market consumer culture have a harder time being visible. If you watch PBS, there is all sorts of good stuff on (and some lame Britcoms), it's just that elsewhere that stuff often gets played on the state owned networks (although not as much as it used to).