25-07-2004 00:49									#1
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This is a thread for ideas about what we do with our fleet and units now.

I have an idea that will keep GWT forces tied up a bit. We don't even haveto use all of our Caravels or units for this either. I picked two spots in GWT waters that will keep them occupied; giving CFC a chance and being less hindered by GWT when they make their own landing.

The first pic has 24 possible LZ's and the 2nd has 25.

	25-07-2004 00:52									#2
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why don't we send our fleet above GWT sail the other side and land everything at Parthe?

(serves as exploration duty too )

	25-07-2004 01:04									#3
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Some of those tiles will be covered by slowmovers; the rest, by Ansar.

Also, it would take too long to get down there. CFC will be in by then, and likely needing out if they haven't boarded the ships again already.

And I think we can help CFC a lot more by adding our Knights to the battle rather than tying them up in the Flammburg passage.

	25-07-2004 01:30									#4
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I'm starting to think that war with GCA sounds great!

	25-07-2004 01:39									#5
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The 2nd pic is better, IMO. Let's continue to focus on our main objective -- destroying the FP. After that, a couple of vengeful hits on GCA really doesn't help us in the slightest ... but it sure feels good.

--Togas

	25-07-2004 02:16									#6
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I think any attack w/o the element of surprise would be futile.

Also I'd disagree with any suggestion of foul play, GWT just have an organized defence.

We should look to outbuild them, that is where we have strength and they have weakness.

We currently have 80 land units and unless I'm mistaken ~100 open coastal tile, we should just get ourselves a sea wall and build the **** out of them CFC have another 75 open tiles on thier side but CGN can probably help us out in blocking the coast too.

	25-07-2004 03:05									#7
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we knew that GWT had quite a few galleys on that coast, its not too suprising that they would move them post-cgn, into defensive positions around their FP.

	25-07-2004 07:21									#8
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To answer this thread's title:

we curl up naked in a fetal position in the corner of an empty closet and we cry like little girls.

	25-07-2004 07:36									#9
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Neither of BF's suggestions will work. GWT has over 50 Ansar and dozens more slowmovers, including 15+ Catapults in their southern stack alone. Their slowmovers could cover every southern landing point in the second picture, completely ignoring their Ansar.

If it weren't for the fact that any unit can prevent any other unit from landing, then we would have a shot. GWT will now be able to stop up no matter what.

	25-07-2004 08:28									#10
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Okay, now for some planning on my end...

Our only chance at doing real damage is keeping our main force concealed. GWT will not try to cover EVERY single tile, or else they will leave themselves open from all angles, especially once CFC lands. This may give us a possibility.

They likely do not have enough Gallies to watch us constantly, especially once we go back out to deep sea. This means we may yet have a chance to land with surprise.

We should use one Caravel to scout along the coast, just outside of GWT's sight due to their borders. This risks them seeing this boat, but we should have the rest of the force trailing that boat further out where GWT won't be able to see us, but close enough to land. If the first boat finds a place to land, every boat should be able to reach that tile and land there. This would mean 30 Knights and 5 Muskets, which must be at least half of their army, giving us a good chance at doing some damage to them or even getting the FP as we planned if we're lucky.

	25-07-2004 08:46									#11
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Actually, we should do this with a twist

Send the one unit, up north, supposidly scourting for open landing points. while the rest of the boats go to the south and deal with GCA

E_T

	25-07-2004 08:57									#12
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Sending another Caravel north might help distract them.

If we get our units landed, we still have a shot at doing immense damage.

	25-07-2004 09:01									#13
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Is there any chance of going for Rhurpott now, or do we need to attack another city/cities?

	25-07-2004 09:56									#14
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For Rhurpott, no not realistically.

Actually, hanging around and waiting for a possible opening would just have us sitting around and not doing something constructive, like working with CFC to do damage to GCA.

I they were to all of the sudden, open a spot, the only reason that would be for is to lead us into a trap.

E_T

	25-07-2004 10:21									#15
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Trip:

My suggestions do not require us to be able to land to be succesful. Bewteen those two "Landing Areas" there are 5 tiles; which means we can "threaten" two distinct areas which cover more than 50 tiles with a landing within 2 turns. Now, if we tie up those 50 plus tiles with any of GWT's units then we are creating a diversion for CFC to do some damage.

There's also the chance that we may very well find a LZ if we make such a journey because slowmovers can only move 3 tiles at a time and only so if there are roads on those tiles. From what I can tell, GWT has many tiles in that area that are not roaded which means they can't shuffle units with great ease in that area.

So...

1. We will be able to tie up more than 50 GWT units in this fashion; which gives CFC a very good chance at doing major damage to GCA and still be able to withdraw some of it's forces to use at another time.

2. We may even be able to find a suitable LZ in which to do some damage with our cargo.

	25-07-2004 16:17									#16
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I'm not in favour of attacking GCA. Like Togas put it, it satisfies a hunger for revenge, but it's not very productive. I think that the way Kloreep planned to go on: sticking to the landing zones near Ruhrpott, is still our best option.

A classical mistake in the war between GS and Vox in the PTW DG was that Vox didn't go to Arashi because they thought it would be heavily defended. They didn't realize that they caught GS with their pants down. We are about to make that mistake again.

GWT's lands might seem well defended, the fact that they have to use Spearmen and horsemen to guard their coast shows that they don't have that much defenders there and they are still a bit surprised.

Lets go on for Ruhrpott and if it doesn't go well, have patience, GWT can't have their entire coast protected if they just finished a war in the south.

Aidun

	25-07-2004 19:21									#17
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My 2c.

Ask CFC if they want to go through with their strike.
If they want to, then sail our galleys around the coast to draw forces away from the CFC LZ.

If CFC agree it is hopeless, then withdraw everything back home, then return the galleys as pickets.


I remember reading on a turn report (a couple back) that GWT cut their iron ?? Again.
They must be building some cheap horsemen/spearmen to set up a sea wall around their important core.
They know we can invade, and they know it's their best defense.

We should do the same.
Those 30 knights are 30 future cav.
They can be used as a sea wall on our side also.

Any damage we do to GWT or GCA will be quickly repaired. All major targets are unavailable to us. Lets not waste our units.

	25-07-2004 22:34									#18
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We don't know that GWT is prepared.

As Aidun says, they are having to use horses and spears to form their seawall. More importantly, it is an incomplete seawall. We did catch them somewhat unprepared; only time may tell whether it was unprepared enough for us to strike.

I think it's likely we'll see Ansar plugging those holes next turn. But we can't be sure of that. What if they made the major mistake of concentrating their Ansar in the south and west, and leaving their east relatively unprotected? Those Ansar could still be some turns out. GWT is not infallible. And if we just pull anchor and head south this turn, we will not be able to strike if GWT did make such a huge blunder.

Sail closer and wait a turn. See if we can land. If not, head south then, when we've seen it's simply impossible.

	26-07-2004 01:55									#19
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There will be Ansar covering every coastal tile next turn, trust me.

BF: CFC will probably be landing in about 4 or 5 turns. It would take something like 15 turns for our armada to get in that area. I think we should just hover off of the coast with a Caravel or two looking for sites while the rest remain out to sea as we head south, looking for an open LZ. Hopefully we've distracted GWT enough so that CFC can get a shot at Flammburg et el. At this point, I think that's about all we can hope for.

	26-07-2004 17:16									#20
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GWT cannot know how many Caravels we have. If they do then there is phenomenal cheating of some sort, for which we have not a shred of evidence, just baseless suspicion. So sending a few Caravels to another place, north or south, enough to convince them we have not got a strike force stealthily moving around to hit somewhere else, or even just holding near Ruhr, could lead them off the scent.

We would need to keep our Caravels further from Ruhr than a suicide of one of those Galleys could see, as I would risk that to learn whether there were more ships lying in wait. We would also need to kill any Galleys that suicided to find us, if they did not sink first. AFAIK there would be no difference in GWT's eyes (or do sinkings occur after the end of turn for the last team in a PBEM?) between sinking and being sunk. We have only just got close enough for them to conceivably have found us, so they cannot have every possible LZ covered this turn. If we find that they do then there is clear evidence they knew before they were able to. If we look at the coast in the previous save we can tell whether they knew this last turn or multiple turns in advance. This will tell us if there are any grounds to suspect a cheat, and if not we know that their knowledge is new, and thus they could not possibly be as prepared for us as if they had this advance knowledge.

	26-07-2004 19:05									#21
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IMHO, we should sail towards North to have better chances to find a LZ. GWT will certainly be more able to cover all the tiles in the Flamburg or Delta areas.

Moving Norh, it would be more difficult to them to send enough of their Ansars to this area.

The best tactics would probably be to send a caravel to North and another to South, in order to force GWT to make difficult choices, assuming they don't currently have enough forces to cover all the coastal tiles. Our main landing force should then sail North on the ocean tiles, remaining invisible to our foes.

There is another reason not to sail far from the current position : if we have succes landing soon, we must keep in mind that our debarquement will need reinforcements if we intend to invade effectively. Our LZ must be as closer as possible from our mainland.

	26-07-2004 19:53									#22
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quote: What do we do now?

Retreat, and concentrate on building up our empire and defending ourselves from GWT attack.

We've lost the element of surprise. Odds are if we do find an open LZ, our forces will be promptly annihilated.

-Arrian

	26-07-2004 20:09									#23
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If we dont have a shot at the FP then I agree on the pull back. But we should do what Trip suggests first. Sending one galley north and one south to confuse GWT on our intent.

And keep the main stack out of possible sight, including the possible exploit ET mentioned in the other thread.

	26-07-2004 20:48									#24
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The thing is, that is a time waster, because we would first have to be far enough out for us to not get spotted at all AND close enough to dash in and out to see if any landing spots are open.

So, how will ve know, we won;t. We go and do as much as we can against GCA, because, they are going to be the ones that are Helping GWT get ready for the Invasion. And who knows, we might actually take them out this time. But If anything, Trashing some of the road network, especially in relation to their SP can help some. Because, it takes time (even if you have a lot of Slave Units) to rebuild roads, Irrigation & Mines. That will keep their New cities from Getting things in orders, as quickly.

Now, Another thing, If GCA does have the Odd War Elephant, If both us and CFC are attacking them, they might be forced to use them and trigger their GA while they have very little cities and are building settlers to claim that land.

I say go after GCA, while we have time. GWT is a wash, pure and simple, but we can hope to keep some of their Units occupied enough to give CFC a chance to do some damage, before we get there.

AND, at that point, It's also up to GWT as to declaring war on us, they certainly don;t want the WW anymore...so we might be able to do enough to still hamper GWT's plans.

E_T

	26-07-2004 23:04									#25
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt GWT cannot know how many Caravels we have.

They likely don't know of the 3 Group B caravels, but a forted galley on LZ4 would have seen the other 9 caravels in Group A all stacked up.

	27-07-2004 00:29									#26
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I hate to say this almost but maybe we need a poll with various options.

A quick one anyway.

	27-07-2004 01:33									#27
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Sailing south to hit GCA won't work either, IMO.

Our only shot at hurting GWT/GCA was a surprise attack. Failing that, we're screwed because they have a lot more troops than we do, and they're on their turf. Their 3-move Ansars = certain death if they know we're coming. Now they do.

Do we have a better shot at hurting GCA? Yes. But the cost/benifit analysis doesn't work out well there. Originally, we were risking 30 knights in exchange for a good shot at GWTs FP. Now we're talking about risking 30 knights for a shot at... what? We won't wipe GCA out. We might toast a city or two, at most, before GWT brings overwhelming Ansar force to bear and wipes out our 30 knights - quite possibly generating more GLs in the process.

I'm telling you - land those 30 knights now or in the near future, and they're toast.

-Arrian

	27-07-2004 04:24									#28
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Arrian is correct.

GS found out the hard way about intercontinental wars against superior units. Lets not make a similiar mistake.

The only thing that gave Apolytons attack a chance was the element of surprise.

With that gone, we need to return home and concentrate on economy.

	27-07-2004 05:31									#29
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yup, I agree with the full withdraw. Tail between the legs and everything.

Hey, it could be worse. They could have spotted us and let us land, only to be annhilated. At least this way we have our future cavalry which can protect us in case of invasion.

	27-07-2004 06:02									#30
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umm, we STILL have a shot at landing next turn, let's not lose hope yet. We haven't come this far to run with our tail between our legs at the first turn of things not going our way.