25-07-2004 00:53									#1
	"Planet: A Survivalist's Guide": Comments and Discussion Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

For any comments about the posts in the "Planet: A Survivalist's Guide" thread, and possible strategy discussions.

	25-07-2004 00:58									#2
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From your morale treatise:

quote: Also 'Elite (+)' gives no extra bonus beyond 'Elite''s +50%.

I could swear I've seen Elite(+) units with a moral bonus of +62.5% when attacking or defending. Perhaps they were not Elite (+), but I have seen 62.5%.

	25-07-2004 01:03									#3
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Have you scrolled through to Children's Creches? Perhaps that explains it? If not, back to testing I guess.

	25-07-2004 01:04									#4
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I just finished the text, the CC effect probably does explain it. What a messed up system it is though. It's a good text, I've never bothered to delve into the matter so deeply but now I feel like I know everything about it (perhaps I do!).

	25-07-2004 11:39									#5
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Don't Elite Believer units have 62.5% morale (50% with a 1.25 fanatic bonus?)

	25-07-2004 11:49									#6
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I don't recall them being Believers, I recall having 62.5 when playing (or at least the units were of) the Peacekeepers (!).

	03-08-2004 04:31									#7
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I realized I forgot to add a rather important way to get morale upgrades:

	02-10-2004 23:16									#8
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Hey Maniac:

That's excellent work!

Maybe we can incorporate some of that in the SMAC Academy too...

	03-10-2004 19:55									#9
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quote: Originally posted by KrysiasKrusader Hey Maniac: That's excellent work!

Thanks!

quote: Maybe we can incorporate some of that in the SMAC Academy too...

Ooh that'd be great!

Btw, feel free to add articles to the Survivalist's Guide as well! I've hardly given any thought to the Spartans before this ACDG, so I'm curious what's the Spartan strategy of other players like you, especially since you IIRC say you play them like a builder.

	04-10-2004 06:26									#10
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I had a lot of experience playing the Spartans years back. Lots of droped PBEM positions are Spartan.

I remember having written something on it in the past as well. So went hunting through some of my old posts and... I found this in the archives at Apolyton (!).

It's a bit dated, but very much of it still applies today. Ogie Oglethorpe (one of my idols) had added to it.

Also... I now see that Maniac and Zeiter had even contributed to the thread.

	05-10-2004 17:12									#11
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Yes I remember that thread. It was very useful for me when thinking about possible Spartan strategy. One thing I'm still wondering about though is whether or not it's beneficial to run free market as the Spartans. Of course, you get some extra energy, but on the other side you lose your +1 Police SE: the only builder advantage we have over the other factions.

Btw, why don't you contact Ogie Oglethorpe and ask if he's interested again in participating in this ACDG? As you can see he's a Spartan member, but he never posted here: only several times in our recruitment thread before the ACDG was fully set up. But perhaps if he knows you're now a Spartan too, he could return.

	05-10-2004 23:24									#12
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Well. Everything is situational, of course. But FREE MARKET sure brings in the e.c's and labs. Try thinking about what you said, and adding POLICE STATE...

I'll see what I can do with Ogie...

	13-10-2004 18:19									#13
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In case you have read my latest addition to the Survivalist's Guide, do you think we should use those methods involving prototypes, or not?

Those "prototype hurry methods" (very short explained a way to hurry units and facilities with (upgraded) crawlers instead of credits) are certainly using aspects and features of the game that were not intended to be used that way by Firaxis. But the same no doubt counts for the stockpile energy bug, upgraded crawlers, unit shells, certain aspects of retro-engineering and unit workshop upgrading, using the nutrient box mechanisms to let your citizens survive while they are actually starving, and so on... But yet they are fully accepted by the PBEM community. So there is no inherent reason not to use these methods I described. It would always mostly be an arbitrary decision made by the SMAC community.

That being said, these could be a few possible scenarios how to deal with these prototype hurry methods:

• Using the undocumented feature of the Skunkworks (switching production for free) or the "delete unit design" method is never allowed.
  
• Using the "Skunkworks method" is allowed, but the "delete unit design" not; not for anyone. This would be most unfair IMO, as that would put the Spartans at a disadvantage (not being able to build Skunkworks), while everyone else could use it.
  
• Using the Skunkworks method is allowed, but the "delete unit design" not, except for the Spartans, who may use it. Since the Spartans don't have to pay prototype costs right from the start, one could argue that the Spartans have a "free Skunkworks facility" right from the start (just like the UoP has network nodes), and therefore should be able to use, besides the no-prototype-cost feature, also the undocumented no-production-penalty feature right from the start.
  
• Everyone is allowed to use both the Skunkworks and delete-unit-design method.

Further matters are, if the "delete-unit design" would be allowed, would it only be for unit-to-unit switching, or also for unit-to-facility switching (which can't be done with the skunkworks method)?

What's your opinion on this?
In any case, please keep quiet about this for now. Just in case it would be allowed, there's no need for our rivals to learn about this yet (especially since at the moment they probably have more crawlers than us).

	14-10-2004 16:45									#14
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Strange. I had expected some reaction.

	14-10-2004 17:07									#15
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I think it's a bit unclear in your post - are you asking that these method's be decided on by the entire DG, as to whether they should be allowed or not?

	14-10-2004 17:15									#16
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I'm wondering whether our faction should (be allowed to) use them in this ACDG. But of course other factions don't need to know about whatever is decided here: these are possible future Spartan tactics posted in the privacy of this forum.

	14-10-2004 17:25									#17
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Ah. I think that we should get and use any benefit possible from the factional advantage, if that benefit has not been clearly banned in the rules agreed upon before the game started.

	14-10-2004 23:18									#18
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Holy ****!


I didn't know about the 'delete unit' trick in the DW.
(Where did you learn that?)

And the free prototyping that sparta gets has always been useless with the advent of supply crawler cash-ins. (Sparta is a really tough faction to play against experienced players, you all know this.)

	15-10-2004 08:16									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac Btw, why don't you contact Ogie Oglethorpe and ask if he's interested again in participating in this ACDG? As you can see he's a Spartan member, but he never posted here: only several times in our recruitment thread before the ACDG was fully set up. But perhaps if he knows you're now a Spartan too, he could return.

While looking for something else, I came across this...

I tried contacting him here. Twice in fact. No go...

I'll try him through CGN, but I don't see him posting there anymore either...

	15-10-2004 19:51									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Kassiopeia Ah. I think that we should get and use any benefit possible from the factional advantage, if that benefit has not been clearly banned in the rules agreed upon before the game started.

Ok, I can live with that.
I guess the biggest consequences if these tricks would be used, would be:

1) The importance of the SE Industry factor decreases somewhat, as SE Industry makes no difference in cost when upgrading crawlers. I guess that's actually a good thing for gameplay balance, as currently eg Wealth and Eudaimonic are pretty much no-brainer SE choices, while Knowledge and especially Power (-2 Ind ) are chosen much less. Also it could weaken the powerful Drones a little, while strengthening the Cult and Spartans.

2) The absolute importance of energy in the mid-game decreases a little in favour of minerals, as crawlers are also a lucrative and flexible way of hurrying just like hurrying with credits.

quote: Originally posted by KrysiasKrusader I didn't know about the 'delete unit' trick in the DW. (Where did you learn that?)

I don't know. I think I accidentally stumbled on the fact, that minerals survive the deletion of a unit design, a long time ago. It's only a couple of months ago though, when the Spartan faction was being organized and I was contemplating the Spartan inability to build Skunkworks, that I put together the different pieces and realized the potential usefulness of "skunkworks" and "delete-unit-design" hurry methods.

quote: Originally posted by KrysiasKrusader While looking for something else, I came across this... I tried contacting him here. Twice in fact. No go... I'll try him through CGN, but I don't see him posting there anymore either...

IIRC he's often seen on Off Topic though, so if he doesn't reply to your PMs, could he be consciously ignoring them?

	15-10-2004 22:44									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac I don't know. I think I accidentally stumbled on the fact, that minerals survive the deletion of a unit design, a long time ago. It's only a couple of months ago though, when the Spartan faction was being organized and I was contemplating the Spartan inability to build Skunkworks, that I put together the different pieces and realized the potential usefulness of "skunkworks" and "delete-unit-design" hurry methods.

So then you've tested this fully, I presume? It was no fluke due to a particular instance (SMAC(X) is full of situational bugs)?

quote: Originally posted by Maniac IIRC he's often seen on Off Topic though, so if he doesn't reply to your PMs, could he be consciously ignoring them?

I doubt it. He may just have it turned off, for all I know.

Googlie: You and Ogie, are you buddy's?

	15-10-2004 23:30									#22
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quote: Originally posted by KrysiasKrusader So then you've tested this fully, I presume? It was no fluke due to a particular instance (SMAC(X) is full of situational bugs)?

I've tested it succesfully once or twice, but not extensively, as I don't play SMAC anymore besides for the ACDG. Why do you ask? Doesn't it work for you?

	16-10-2004 05:59									#23
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quote: Originally posted by KrysiasKrusader Googlie: You and Ogie, are you buddy's?

I fired him off a supplicating PM

	18-10-2004 06:35									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac I've tested it succesfully once or twice, but not extensively, as I don't play SMAC anymore besides for the ACDG. Why do you ask? Doesn't it work for you?

I dunno. Like I said in my other post. This trick is news to me.
I've put testing this on my 'list of things to do'. But i'm presently a little behind with what's been happening here. Plus real life. So, I'll let you know "some time" in the futur on my own findings.