28-07-2004 21:50									#31
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Who's to say that GWT will not invade us? I think it's more than likely. WW will be a big problem.

	28-07-2004 23:20									#32
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We can stop an GWT invasion in the same manner they stopped us. We simply set up an "early warning system." Once we can prevent GWT from landing they cannot invade us till they get to Marines and we'll be there far ahead of them.

	29-07-2004 01:27									#33
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NO WAY would the anarchy be worth it for the switch to Democracy, especially when you consider we would likely have to switch out again at some point to Monarchy. Demo isn't all that much better than Republic. We're industrious anyway - our workers are pretty fast as it is. What we are NOT is religious - if we were, a government switch would make sense. But anarchy is nearly a total loss. No way is the small benifit of Demo over Republic worth the cost of the anarchy.

With regard to the MT beeline: it depends on what we do with the 30 knights currently loaded on our fleet. If they come home (as I think they should), we probably have enough units to manage solid coastal protection (assuming naval pickets for advance warning of incoming invasion) without 3-move units. Thus, it would make sense to go for other techs (in fact, I could see us skipping MT altogether).

-Arrian

	29-07-2004 02:00									#34
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You guys are crazy; plus you have nothing to back your statements up with besides "The anarchy will hurt us." Please.

	29-07-2004 02:31									#35
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BF, I don't mean to insult you, but who do you think the senators should listen to: you, or the strat guys?

Last edited by Krill on 29-07-2004 at 03:15

	29-07-2004 03:02									#36
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree You guys are crazy; plus you have nothing to back your statements up with besides "The anarchy will hurt us." Please.

I don't see arguments from either side except experience.

Welcome to the funny farm.

	29-07-2004 05:27									#37
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Krill: Do the "strat" guys often play Diplomacy games? Playing agianst the AI is a little different. Also, just because I'm not a "strat" guy with an AU icon next to my name does not mean I don't know how to play the game.

In a current PBEM I'm playing right now (***PBEM***) I simmed out staying as a Republic and switching to a Democracy. I found that, even with 4 turns of Anarchy, I made up for the difference in ~23 turns. I say ~23 because it's hard to track everything and to put relative values on things like food, commerce, population, shields, culture, research power, ect. This was simmed in PTW with a FP in place. Now, I never switched to a Democracy because I was planning on basically staying at war throughout the game once I had started one. (the game is still ongoing, but neither of the current 2 Civ's left are members here. ). Now, if I had planned to go the buiilder route for quite some time, I found it beneficial to go with a Democracy; and I didn't even hae a commercial Civ. A commercial Civ takes a bigger advantage of a Democracy than one who isn't; that is they feel the effects of the switch at a greater rate.

Kloreep: My main argument is... Do you think that the game's designers were so far off in the design and implementation of Government systems so as to make it silly for one to choose Democracy over Republic?

I guess I will have to use a Sim to really prove it....

	29-07-2004 05:45									#38
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree Kloreep: My main argument is... Do you think that the game's designers were so far off in the design and implementation of Government systems so as to make it silly for one to choose Democracy over Republic?

The game designers are not perfect. And frankly, I'm not sure they know civ as well as some more experienced people, particularly how the game is played in more competitive DGs and PBEMs.

And I'm not saying Democracy is simply bad. I just don't think it's hands above Republic either. In a SP game where I've expanded as far as I want and plan to build the rest of the game out, I probably would go for Democracy over Republic. It would be a no-brainer if I was religious.

But we don't plan to build the game out; it's simply impossible in a MP game like this that has essentially come down to 1v1. Even if the eventual victory method used by the winner is spaceship, or 1 city cultural, or whatever, military will come in to play as a means of stopping any peaceful victory. We're going to have to be ready and to fight, and as a consequence, we're going to be dealing with WW.

	29-07-2004 06:33									#39
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree It would not be two techs worth. Especially since GWT cannot now research at a 4 turn pace. The amount of time spent in anarchy would be between 2 and 6 turns; with 4 being the average. The game was not designed so badly that is is not worth it to go to a Democracy when war is not on the horizon.

Just wait until GWT and CGN make peace. GWT will get an influx of 150+ GPT for tech research. They'll blaze up and catch us if we're not careful.

The amount of turns of anarchy depend on how many cities you have. It can be a grossly huge number later on. I've gotten 9 turns of anarchy just after entering the Medieval Age, and I didn't even have all that many cities.

	29-07-2004 12:10									#40
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree In a current PBEM I'm playing right now (***PBEM***) I simmed out staying as a Republic and switching to a Democracy. I found that, even with 4 turns of Anarchy, I made up for the difference in ~23 turns.

Which is, however, quite a compelling reason to NOT go democracy in our case, is it not? If you make the loss up in ~23 turns and then need few turns less to make for the loss caused by switching back to a less WW-sensible government... you are around 40 turns needed to get even.

IMHO, 40 turns is an awful lot of time. Just look at the PtWDG, how much happened in 40 turns there.

	29-07-2004 17:14									#41
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23 turns just to break even from 4 turns of anarchy - and of course that's the figure from a different empire, not the one we have here. I would be surprised if we only got 4 turns of anarchy, with the size of our empire.

Re: game design... well, yeah, I *do* think that the designers made it such that a switch to Demo doesn't make sense - *IF* you factor in anarchy for a non-religious civ and also assume that the game will not finish with a peaceful UN or SS launch win.

I can't believe I didn't bring this up before, but Democracy is not a required tech. So not only are we talking about a number of turns in anarchy (say 6 turns), we're talking about researching a tech we don't need (unless we think we need to switch governments). How long would that research take?

To recap: anarchy will likely be longer than 4 turns... possibly as high as 8 or 9 (I thought 9 was only in Conquests). That's a near-total loss. It will also take time to research Demo (I honestly don't know what our science rate is like right now, but let's call it 6 turns). So roughly a 12-14 turn detour. Further, though we would eventually recoup our losses a long way down the road, we also would be choosing a high WW government in a game which will most likely be decided by war. I think if we go the "defend and try to win by SS" route, we could probably keep our republic. But would we survive as a democracy? I'm not so sure. That, of course, is impossible to say.

Sorry, Bigfree, but I think THAT is crazy.

-Arrian

edit: One more thing. That 12-14 turn detour hurts us in more than just GWT closing the tech gap. That's roughly 2 techs worth of time. In that time, if we do not research demo and switch to it, we could research two required techs and get ourselves yet closer to the industrial age... and rails & factories. Which would we rather have? A switch to demo, or a chance to start building rails and factories 12 turns sooner?

	29-07-2004 22:28									#42
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quote: Krill: Do the "strat" guys often play Diplomacy games? Playing agianst the AI is a little different. Also, just because I'm not a "strat" guy with an AU icon next to my name does not mean I don't know how to play the game.

I never meant to say that, and I am sorry if I offended you.

	29-07-2004 22:34									#43
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No problem Krill.

	29-07-2004 22:39									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Trip I've gotten 9 turns of anarchy just after entering the Medieval Age, and I didn't even have all that many cities.

I once got 9 turns of anarchy in an accel prod game which I figure is like loosing 18 turns of normal production

	13-08-2004 12:51									#45
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beeline to MT

	13-08-2004 21:49									#46
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This isn't conquests, so max is 8 turns anarchy.
Take that as worst case analysis.

The math is much simplier as well because unit support is not a factor.

What is a factor is how much corruption would be reduced. I propose that as soon as ET suspension is served out, that he be called upon to sim that out.

In the meantime, beeline to MT. My intution is that the best time to research Democracy (and switch to it) will be right before we reserach steam power. The 50% faster workers at the beginning of needed rails would greatly reduce the break even point.

	14-08-2004 00:12									#47
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I still say that switching to Demo is a very bad idea. Based upon the size of our empire, we're almost assured of getting 8 turns of Anarchy. We DO NOT need to waste 8 turns of research and production with an unhindered GWT who will soon have no WW to hold them back...

	14-08-2004 01:08									#48
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This is not a sprint anymore; it's a marathon. We have ~ 350 turns left to go till the end of the game. A space race is the most likely outcome with a few skirmishes here and there.

	14-08-2004 01:31									#49
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Though... a marathon with a maximum speed limit. If we are able to keep researching 4t techs and upgrade our armed forces as needed, then it's not really needed to make more gold - then the transition from one government type to another (and probably back) is simply an expendable luxury.

I admit I am not informed well about how we are doing now in this game economy-wise, but an empire of this size should be able to generate gold enough for research, military, goldrushing, and later spy missions even under Republic.

I'm with those that consider switching to Democracy a risk that's not really justified (and... despite the disclaimer regarding the current status of our ISDG empire... I still know a thing about running Carthage... ).

	14-08-2004 01:37									#50
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Just because we can "do good" without it doesn't mean that we can't "do better" with it. In terms of Civ, more is better. As in more commerce, more shields, more population. All of which come directly and indirectly from a switch to a Democracy. Gold does not go to waste.

I think I will get with E_T and Sim something out here...

	14-08-2004 06:30									#51
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BF, Workers also slow down during Anarchy. Which means that's another 4 full Worker turns PER WORKER that have to be made up later. That's in addition to all the lost shields and gold which ALSO have to be made up by future Worker turns gained from Democracy. There's really not even all that much left for our Workers to do now. A few tiles of jungle left to clear and then improve those tiles, and that's it until RRs come along.

Also don't forget the increased WW of Democracy, all other issues aside. It's MUCH easier to build up really bad WW with Democracy than Republic... and when it gets too bad (and it will, when we fight the REAL war with GWT), we'll have to go into Anarchy AGAIN to a DIFFERENT government... and then BACK to something else later again!

	14-08-2004 12:40									#52
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HAHA(tm)

The way you look at it we should have stayed with Despotism! Yes, it will cost us in the short term...but, we are not now playing for a short game. This game will go to a Space race most likely; unless we can get the UN victory. But who knows how long CGN will be around.

	15-08-2004 04:02									#53
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Poor attempt at putting words in my mouth.

Anyways, we're not going to switch anyways so I'll leave this thread to you.

	15-08-2004 07:17									#54
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Well it's clear that some more examination of the pros and cons of this (and perhaps some sims) are needed before we decide. As it is I remain to be convinced of the need to change to Democracy, but I like to keep an open mind.

Judging by the slowness of the turn rate and the fact that it is yet to be seen that a Democratic government will provide a substantial bonus over our current Republic, we can afford to take our time deciding with this. I think it would require a poll as well, when we are satisfied we've covered all necessary angles.

	20-09-2004 19:50									#55
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MEGABUMP

	21-09-2004 02:06									#56
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Bumping the original proposal, I assume, and not the lengthy threadjack.

Anyway... I'm not sure MT is going to be worth it. I suppose if we are *not* going the block-the-coast route, it could be. And it seems we would need a rather large number of units, we might decide to not block our entire coast, and use picket ships to detect incoming fleets and reposition a mobile blocking force.

So the question becomes this: does getting MT (and, thus, transforming our 30 kniggots into cavalry) reduce the number of units we require (land and sea), and if so, by how much?

Toss into this evaluation the very real danger that CFC will **** this up by not defending themselves properly, and thus having Cavalry would give us a better shot at repulsing a landing by GWT.

-Arrian, just thinkin' out loud.

	21-09-2004 02:18									#57
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If we build 20 more fastmovers and upgrade them to Cavalry we'll have 50 total. With an extensive sentry net (which will be the most important part of our defense for quite some time) that should be more than enough to stop any GWT landings, given that we already have ~50 slowmovers that we can position in various more vital positions that should always be better defended.

Being able to traverse 9 tiles per turn along roads is an enormous advantage... just ask GWT.

	25-09-2004 19:18									#58
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As I said in another thread, if you fail to research Military Tradition, you WILL die. I love you guys to death, but that's clear as a bell to me, and I'm kinda surprised it's not to all of you. If you fail to research Mil Tra:

WHEN - not if - GWT comes over and lands in *CFC's* land (why should they try to land in your area? You are the stronger partner.) they'll do it in massive force, and it will almost certainly succeed, because my reviewing of threads has convinced me of what I suspected when I left months ago: CFC is the domain of the putz.

They'll eat up a big chunk of CFC - possibly, but not certainly, leaving them for finishing off later - and then come for you. At the same time they hit one of the bottlenecks, a moderate sized amphibious force will strike somewhere in the rear. Without cavalry, you cannot hope to block that force landing. You can also count on GWT's force BEING cavalry (by the time they finish off CFC and regroup), and since it's always a lot easier to strike AT cavalry than be struck BY cavalry, you'll have to either use knights to strike outward - a bad proposition - or hopefully defend with rifles.

Maybe "fresh eyes" are needed or maybe my advice will be largely ignored, but failure to get Military Tradition, IMNSHO = Apolyton will die upon the hills of the land they created.

Regarding Democracy, I would like to point out the shortcomings of this idea as I see them:

1- This is an optional tech. It is VITAL that you keep a significant, real tech lead on GWT. That is by no means assured, despite what some people seem to think. (Particularly if they get all this gold Trip mentioned from CGN? I'm not familiar with the terms of CGN's peace agreement with them or why?)

2- When, precisely, would be the smart time for the switch? Common MP tactic: wait for the anarchy flag to pop up before attacking. (And for those of you in the C3CISDG, don't you dare throw that in my face as a suspicion later. :P I've listened to enough paranoia for one month. :P ) If GWT sees "Anarchy" pop up, they may go for the throat right then, and a civ in anarchy is a TARGET. (Particularly if they already have troops landed as a result of jamming a boot in CFC's face.)

3- 23 turns to the break-even point on the switch wouldn't seem so bad (though not exactly convincing either), but that's an average situation. In the worst situation - 8 turns - it's a good bit worse. Has someone bothered to calculate how much it will take to break even again when we have to switch out of Democracy much later, because our people are going ballistic? Democracy is good, but not that good - as long as 4 turn research continues, the "rush build gold" that Democracy will give isn't that great an advantage.

	28-09-2004 22:40									#59
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first off, as for Demo, that is a good one for CFC to work on, at a 40 turn pace. I have (in the past) discussed this with several Consuls, over a long time, and the main concensus has been to stay in Republic for as long as major war with GWT/GCA is possible. Of cource, this was before our Invasion failed....

As for the Benifits:
1) better corruption - this is being worked out with our courthouse builds. Other than that, not needed at this time, as we have a very solid economic core and are not planning to expand any time soon. Just to get one or 2 more sheilds/trade, in a few cities, is not needed, as long as we can get those cities up to decent sizes.

2) Faster worker times - Well, for one thing, the Jungle is almost gone, so what do we need our workers to go slightly faster for?? To build the Railroad systems?? We will have sufficient Quantities of Workers to do those taskes and with (currently) 2-2 turn worker pump cities, what more will we need??

Then, don't forget the additional War weariness cost from Demo, not worth it, on this type of game.

Now, as for Mil Trad, Yes, we need to work towards it, BUT, with the advent of our Upcoming GA AND our coastal cities being ready to build lots of Frigates, we should go for Mags first and get Mil Trad while in GA (Up to 8 turns within the GA to be exact). We still have to build more Horsemen, for the eventual Upgrade, along with the CA$H to make the upgrades. Granted, we still have our expeditionary force, that we have sent out, that can be recalled and quickly upgraded, when the time it right.


Having the land Units to defend us is one thing, but also the capability to smash the Invasions before they even land, will be the other thing that we will need to do. Our Navies need to be increased, as that is where this game is going to be desided for a long time to come (mid/late Indust).

E_T

	29-09-2004 07:58									#60
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Frigates are a waste of production, and any good screen can be dealt with in short order by simply striking two different sections of the screen simultaneously with sentinel-killers. You then have no idea where the real force is going to come through - you might move to cover a blank spot only to accidentally leave the "real thing" open.

Trying to screen a continent the size of Apolyton/CFC's is ridiculous - a tremendous amount of time and effort into boats that cannot be upgraded, for a cause which is nearly impossible. Take a lesson from the U.S./Mexico border: sometimes there's just too much space to watch it all efficiently.

I really think people are being far too optimistic in assuming a landing is preventable, particularly with how inept CFC is - the landing will happen - it's simply a question of when, and what Apolyton has to react to it with.

One major chunk of being skilled in MP is the interception and reaction of major assaults by humans, and I can tell you with utter certainty: you cannot prevent an amphibious landing over that large an area if your opponent has any degree of planning and intelligence.