25-07-2004 02:53									#1
	A way around the 5-turn forced Peace? Support Apolyton

Idea:

Give CGN Navigation.

This allows them to attack GCA and GWT at will. The foundation of the 5-turn forced peace was that war was impossible to wage due to the ocean, and staying at war was merely a sham.

If powers could cross the ocean at any time and strike, then war would be ongoing and no longer just a sham.

Or would it?

Once GCA and GWT have Navigation, and we attacked either one, we'd never get peace again. We would also suffer from the backlash this ruling would cause and a new WW ruling would have to be made.

How do we want to play this? Please discuss.

--Togas

	25-07-2004 03:06									#2
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A role of having the initiative for Apolyton wouldn't be bad now that the parties themselves are apparently unable to solve it. Sorry for that strange formulation.

So yes, lets do that. we won't harm ourselves with it.

Aidun

	25-07-2004 03:09									#3
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No!

I hope we have monarchy, because the rest of the game will be a perpetual state of war.

We would be screaming bloody murder if GCA tried to pull the same bullcrap on us. CGN sending a caravel every 20 turns with a warrior on it is NOT an effective means of conducting war, I'm sorry.

Can we possibly get any cheaper?

	25-07-2004 03:14									#4
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I'm For it, ONLY if we can be certain that Mongoose will rule for this. Now, granted, it is kind of cheap and such, and we are Better than that, but if that;s the case, then because of the cheap things that the Opposition has already pulled, we have already lost this game and should have quit a long time ago.

Our Options, bacially sit back and wait for GWT/GCA to invade. Oh, we can do little things, like trash some of GCA's area, but it doesn;t do the amount of damage that CGNcan do with continuing the WW against GWT. It would be enough to be cerain of us forstalling the Invasion & repelling the Invasion

The Con of this, we further cheapen the 3 techs that we have over GWT/GCA. But, if that is a drop in te bucket, if they get peace with CGN. And again, as Togas said, it very much might turn around and bite us. But, it's a gamble and I'm willing to risk it.

E_T

	25-07-2004 03:27									#5
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Are we no better than Lucky and his pathetic excuses now?

NO.

quote: Originally posted by Aidun So yes, lets do that. we won't harm ourselves with it.

On a purely pragmatic level, I do not think this is true. GCA and GWT can make the same argument and stay at war during any time at which we have WW due to fighting on their soil.

	25-07-2004 04:25									#6
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Well Kloreep, it seems that GCA cannot be convinced by any other way than through their own manipulated interpretation of the rules.

We can tell also fist tell that that we have this option and that according to their interpretation we CAN do this. That's a heavy diplomatic pressure. A more neat version of outright trading it already.

Aidun

	25-07-2004 05:01									#7
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I don't care who the agreesor is; both teams will suffer from WW after a certain point has past. Ealier, when we were at war with GCA they too suffered from WW. It's just that we, being larger, suffered more in lost commerce/shields than they did overall; so, they kept us in that state to hurt us.

After 20 turns at war both sides will feel WW. It's just that the "defender" gets 5 turn of War Happiness, followed by 5 turns of normalcy then the WW starts to kick in after the 10th turn. By turn 20, during war, the WW for either side is about equal.

	25-07-2004 05:11									#8
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That is still a big advantage, 20 turns less WW or even WH than the opponent.

Aidun

	25-07-2004 05:13									#9
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quote: Originally posted by WhiteBandit CGN sending a caravel every 20 turns with a warrior on it is NOT an effective means of conducting war, I'm sorry.

I can say that puting a warrior on a tile should not effectively stop of from landing on that tile and thus making war with another Civ...but, that's the way the game works. It's not totally based upon reality.

Here's another angle to CGN remaining at war with GWT and GCA:

We are in an alliance with CGN and CFC against GWT and GCA. Thus, if we are at war with GWT and/or GCA and WE have the means to wage war, then our allies shall also remain at war with our common enemy.

Lets say that CGN gave peace to GWT and GCA. Then GWT or GCA could conduct espionage on CGN's cities so that they could gather intel to use to destroy CGN. Or, GWT and GCA could use the espinonage capability to steal techs from CGN since they are not at war.

This game keeps taking on new twists almost every month! In all reality it should be APO and CFC against GWT and that's it!

I say we let CGN saty at war with GCA and GWT and then when those two compaign we go to GWT and tell them that there should only be 3 teams still playing and that if they agree to "get rid" of GCA, we will do the same to CGN. That we level the playing field to what is closer to reality and make the game closer to what it was intended.

	25-07-2004 05:23									#10
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A very strong NO. Also, on the espionage issue, do I understand correctly that CGN could just redeclare war and there would be no WW issue but still no spying?

	25-07-2004 05:50									#11
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Err GCA couldn't have had WW with us in our war as they were in despotism throughout the war - that is why it was really annoying for Lucky to use that WW tactic for 15 turns after the war ended - grrrr

	25-07-2004 06:31									#12
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree I can say that puting a warrior on a tile should not effectively stop of from landing on that tile and thus making war with another Civ...but, that's the way the game works. It's not totally based upon reality. Here's another angle to CGN remaining at war with GWT and GCA: We are in an alliance with CGN and CFC against GWT and GCA. Thus, if we are at war with GWT and/or GCA and WE have the means to wage war, then our allies shall also remain at war with our common enemy. Lets say that CGN gave peace to GWT and GCA. Then GWT or GCA could conduct espionage on CGN's cities so that they could gather intel to use to destroy CGN. Or, GWT and GCA could use the espinonage capability to steal techs from CGN since they are not at war. This game keeps taking on new twists almost every month! In all reality it should be APO and CFC against GWT and that's it! I say we let CGN saty at war with GCA and GWT and then when those two compaign we go to GWT and tell them that there should only be 3 teams still playing and that if they agree to "get rid" of GCA, we will do the same to CGN. That we level the playing field to what is closer to reality and make the game closer to what it was intended.

Why do people feel it's a god-given right that GCA shouldn't be in the game? It's our fault for not conducting diplomacy to get GWT on our side.

By the same token, RP and Vox should no longer exist in the PTWDG. :P

This is simply a factor of exploting game mechanics and it's ****ing cheap.

	25-07-2004 06:35									#13
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I know n00bs voting in important polls is something dangerous and irritating, but I cast my vote in as no.
We´re THE Apolyton ISDG team. We go and crush our problems into gob, we don´t pull tricks like this, with potentially dangerous effects in the long run.

	25-07-2004 07:17									#14
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Sorry, I find this a very cheesy tactic. We would fume if GCA did this to us and now we are actively encouraging CGN to do it??? I'd rather we lose than to stoop as low as Lucky would if he had the chance to do this.

	25-07-2004 08:09									#15
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree I don't care who the agreesor is; both teams will suffer from WW after a certain point has past. Ealier, when we were at war with GCA they too suffered from WW. It's just that we, being larger, suffered more in lost commerce/shields than they did overall; so, they kept us in that state to hurt us. After 20 turns at war both sides will feel WW. It's just that the "defender" gets 5 turn of War Happiness, followed by 5 turns of normalcy then the WW starts to kick in after the 10th turn. By turn 20, during war, the WW for either side is about equal.

Actually, that is not the case (we have a link to this, over at CFC, somewhere). For one thing, NYE did some testing and as long as there is no attacks, there is no change in our (or their) WW cost. and over time, the WW is reduces, buy 1 point per turn.

E_T

	25-07-2004 08:16									#16
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No.

Trying to keep GWT weakened by cheating should not be a goal of this team. We are not as low as to resort to tactics such as this sort, after we did all we could to get Mongoose to make GCA play fairly. GWT should not be so severely penalized the entire game for who they choose to attack, a completely legitimate game-decision.

	25-07-2004 10:07									#17
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quote: Originally posted by E_T Actually, that is not the case (we have a link to this, over at CFC, somewhere). For one thing, NYE did some testing and as long as there is no attacks, there is no change in our (or their) WW cost. and over time, the WW is reduces, buy 1 point per turn. E_T

I'm not sure what you are trying to refute here. WW is felt by both Civ's in an attack. The Civ who declares war feels the most WW. The Civ who is on foreign soil also feels the most WW. The Civ who get's war declared upon get 5 turns of War Happiness; which more than offsets the WW they get.

Whether or not a Civ feels the effects of WW is another matter. It accumulates, albeit at different rates, for the different situations for each Civ. It's when it reaches a certain point that it's effects are felt by each Civ individualy.

When a Civ gets peace the effects of WW are no longer felt instantaneously. It does not mean that the mechansim which tracks WW has stopped tracking it though. The game keeps a running tab on this throughout the whole game in terms of WW caused by war against particular Civ's.

I hope I'm explaining this well enough. If not, then

	25-07-2004 19:27									#18
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No ...

But it would be good to post this idea at the UN.
Just to show how stupid this 5 turn rule is.