26-07-2004 18:06									#31
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Anything that has the potential to either silence some suspicious minds or to give some evidence for the suspicion is worth it in my book. We are at the point where anytime we are disadvantaged for WHATEVER reason, a number will immediately cry foul. I just want to either stop that or to prove it is worth chasing up. I'M bloody sick of the over-suspicion.

And I don;t quite follow your logic either. We would either find that: a) there was a Galley somewhere that conceivably GWT could have spotted us with, and to back that up maybe see that the coast is clear before the turn when we were close enough to be spotted or b) there was no Galley and/or the coast was defended before we got close enough to be noticed, lending some weight to the suspicions. Why would we expect that GWT would have units along every exposed section of coast (that's every section, since they should know we have Navigation), should we see that they have them there before being able to spot us? That's not likely at all, and even in my book is starting to look sus.

	26-07-2004 18:37									#32
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel I think you need to get thicker skin. Where's the ridicule? I thought it was a civil thread, much more so than some I've seen around here.

Perhaps I have expressed myself not correctly and perhaps I overreacted (only the rest of you can say). What I mean is that some of the members who posted in this thread are asking what is wrong with this team and have stated that we should not blame our faillure on another team or in comparable formulations or implying it by their formulations.

That is an attitude that I consider the same as putting your head in the sand. E_T has the opportunity to check if another team cheated by looking at a previous turn. There is nothing wrong with that and then I don't like to see people reacting to that in a style as if E_T and those who support him on this matter are doing something wrong.

I don't suspect anyone, but I have played enough games of any sort to know that people who are not in ideal situation and who have the opportunity to cheat and to improve their situation by such means, are in most cases tempted to do so and actually do so in not a small number of cases, perhaps many.

GWT is not in an ideal position: they are far behind in technology. The war with CGN has cost them very much time and created a big technological gap between us and them. GWT knows as well as we do that if we succeed to give their economy a heavy blow, that the game will have ended for GWT and that they only have to wait until their final defeat in the industrial or otherwise modern age. In other words: our invasion is for us THE key to victory, the matchpoint. Cheating is under such conditions a very attractive alternative, especially when it is hard to discover. It may not give you the satisfaction of having won a game, but at least you have saved the name GWT. The fairest among humans will untimately fall for such an attractive alternative.

Personally I hold the members of GWT in a pretty high esteem. They have been honourable in the PTW DG when playing as Neu Demogyptica, although I don't like that they defeated my team, they played fair and were just a very strong opponent. In this game it is their ally GCA that cheated from time to time, but that doesn't tell us anything about GWT. Personally I don't thing GWT cheated and I also hope that GWT didn't cheat.

Of course we don't know if GWT fell for the attractive alternative of cheating, but I see no harm in checking that. When you pay at the supermarket nobody expects you to pay with false money, but when you pay with $200 or more, the cashier might check if it is false or not, not because he suspects you, but just in case. You can't see it from a person's nose, we use to say here.

E_T has analyzed the situation in our game and has shared his findings with us. Now that he has done again a lot of work for the team, something the team benefits from, I think he doesn't deserve to be looked at as if it is him who is doing something wrong.

the last phrase in my previous post is sarcastic, not without reason. It has happened more than once that one of us said something that was considered at least controversial by others and that person received not very positive comments. But when things turned out as he predicted, he was praised by all. That is lettling yourself swayed by the direction of the "political" "wind".

If someone is so stubborn to stick to his own opinion, I find it without style to switch to the other's when the other's right is suddenly proved. That is why I asked those people who are stubborn on this matter to not eventually praise E_T afterwards, because that is without meaning.

I am very sorry if this would offend anyone.

Aidun

	26-07-2004 18:49									#33
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt We are at the point where anytime we are disadvantaged for WHATEVER reason, a number will immediately cry foul. I just want to either stop that or to prove it is worth chasing up. I'M bloody sick of the over-suspicion.

This is unfortunately true. However, I am afraid this can hardly be helped at this point - too much has happened in this game. It's in the game, not us, I believe - look at PtWDG. Pretty much the same players there (speaking of this team) and yet, AFAIK, there has never been a shadow of suspicion like we are running into every now and then in this game.

quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt And I don;t quite follow your logic either. We would either find that: a) there was a Galley somewhere that conceivably GWT could have spotted us with, and to back that up maybe see that the coast is clear before the turn when we were close enough to be spotted or b) there was no Galley and/or the coast was defended before we got close enough to be noticed, lending some weight to the suspicions. Why would we expect that GWT would have units along every exposed section of coast (that's every section, since they should know we have Navigation), should we see that they have them there before being able to spot us? That's not likely at all, and even in my book is starting to look sus.

I will try to rephrase:

Moving E:
A. GWT galley forted at LZ 4 -> case closed
B. GWT galley NOT forted at LZ4 -> suspicion rises

At this point, we would want to take a peek at the coast, to see whether the units were already there or not. Without that information, the very fact that GWT had no means to spot us would mean very little, as their units could have been blocking the coast for several years already.

Moving further E, then:
B1. coast guarded -> suspicion remains the same
B2. coast not guarded -> suspicion rises

Note, that B1 would not prove GWT was not cheating (as the units could have been moved there on that very turn after using one of the galleys to discover us during a, uhm, "rehearsal" turn phase - if we are talking cheats here), just like B2 would not prove that GWT was cheating (as units could have been moved there "by coincidence", even without having spotted our caravels during a "rehearsal" turn).

And IMHO, B1 & B2 do reveal a little bit of information (GWT units rushed or not rushed to defensive positions only this turn) we would not be able to gain otherwise and still can at least partially use to adjust our current strategy now. No big deal, but still out of the "white" area, IMHO.

The way I see it, the only really helpful result would be to see a forted GWT galley at LZ 4. If there is none, we will only sink deeper in our suspicions, focusing on the possibility of foul play instead of re-thinking/amending our plan.

	26-07-2004 22:11									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Aidun I would like to see this team stop assuming and to stop marking a person's ideas or commens as rediculous. THAT will ultimately destroy the spirit of the team.

Aidun, read the title of this thread, what do you think that does for the spirit of the team? How would you feel if you were known to have friends on GWT?

	26-07-2004 23:00									#35
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Vondrack:

Aidun: I don't mean to offend anyone, and if I've gone over the line when talking about our teammates, please tell me.

But I find it extremely distressing that anyone on this team would suspect GWT of outright cheating when I see no real reason to suspect they would cheat, when there is every possibility of them spotting us completely legally, when there is also a possibility of them forming a small seawall for the heck of it, as Vondrack points out...

It just is not the spirit I'd like to see in this game. We were forced to explore down in the sewer following Lucky's very improbable combat results, and the straight odds say it's likely he did cheat. But I see no similiar reason to suspect GWT; frankly, all I see is emotional fallout from our plans not going well, from GWT putting a wrench in the works.

	26-07-2004 23:07									#36
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Kloreep

I also find it distressing that now we are crying foul when anything disadvantages happens. Not a game/team spirit I'm looking for

	26-07-2004 23:42									#37
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quote: Originally posted by OPD Aidun, read the title of this thread, what do you think that does for the spirit of the team? How would you feel if you were known to have friends on GWT?

Ow, right I didn't realize that. Towards people who have friends in the other team it is indeed offending. Seeing things in a perspective of black and white is something that we should watch out for, I think, unfortunately it is something that seems to go hand in hand with a bipolar international political system like we have.

I am sorry if I offended people with my statements. But like I said above, personally I hold the members of GWT in high esteem.

Aidun

	26-07-2004 23:51									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Kloreep Vondrack: Aidun: I don't mean to offend anyone, and if I've gone over the line when talking about our teammates, please tell me. But I find it extremely distressing that anyone on this team would suspect GWT of outright cheating when I see no real reason to suspect they would cheat, when there is every possibility of them spotting us completely legally, when there is also a possibility of them forming a small seawall for the heck of it, as Vondrack points out... It just is not the spirit I'd like to see in this game. We were forced to explore down in the sewer following Lucky's very improbable combat results, and the straight odds say it's likely he did cheat. But I see no similiar reason to suspect GWT; frankly, all I see is emotional fallout from our plans not going well, from GWT putting a wrench in the works.

Kloreep, my compliments how you serve us as a consul. You stand above all the talk by everyone like a real leader should, but you also bend knees to talk with those who are under you and whom you lead.

I largely agree with you. I am but warning that even the fairest persons can in difficult situations fail and cheat. None of is an exception to that, neither is our opponent. Suspecting GWT of cheating is not appropriate, but now that we have a way to check it without doing any harm to the game, I see no objection to it. It's the same like the checking whether a banknote is genuine or not: nobody suspects you: just in case: you can't judge it from a person's nose.

Aidun

	27-07-2004 01:03									#39
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where are our grounds to justify CHANGING orders in a previous save? I thought that was considered cheating. True, we have no admin, but still, what would GWT's response be if we suddenly raised a racket that we get certain info by replaying past turns to "take peeks"?

I'm sorry but I could never condone such a thing especially considering that we've always prided ourselves in sticking to the spirit of this demo game (if that spirit still exists, that's another issue entirely). I also detest the fact that we ALWAYS end up smelling rats whenever things don't go our way. Face it, we won't have a winning streak from here to the end, there will be bumps on the road, and there may very well be walls. I think, sadly, that some of us have some sort of idea that just because we excel at efficiency and perfectionism we somehow DESERVE to win this game and that there is no way we could lose. That is not true, no-where is it written that we are sure to win, and we might very well lose against a team which is far less efficient than us, but got lucky with their starting position, had an incompetent neighbor, and was highly skilled at war.

Please, let's shrug off this invincibility attitude we have and accept the fact that we might very well have been out-thought by GWT who conveniently placed galleys on likely invasion paths. It's either that or blame everything on everyone else... that Trip tipped them off by bragging that we could invade them in 10 turns.... that Lucky loaded the save in SP and saw our fleet and tipped them off... that GWT made cheesy galley exploitation tricks, etc. etc. etc.

So, no we will NOT hold the save until we clear this issue up, we will play as soon as orders are up (and I'll personally see to it with Kloreep that they are up today) and we'll play it. Our concern right now is to make the best moves we can to land somewhere in GWT, our duty is to outskill them at war for once. We can do it.

-MZ

	27-07-2004 02:59									#40
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Well, you raise an issue there. I believe the point was made before by kloreep, but not discussed until now: is replaying previous saves with different moves cheathing, or in other words: do we harm the game by replaying previous turns with different orders.

There is of ourse the possibility of getting info that we are not legally supposed to know.

Aidun

	27-07-2004 04:16									#41
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Dont change previous saves.

What if we checked the LZ, and found 60-70 ansar parked there.
This means the CFC attack may have a chance of
success if GWTs entire force was on the west coast.
Would we then comunicate this to CFC if they decide to not go ahead with their attack ?

What if we spotted 20 galleys heading north to be upgraded.
Would we then change our tech choice and beeline for military tradition ?

Lets not open pandora's box.

	27-07-2004 04:45									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen where are our grounds to justify CHANGING orders in a previous save? I thought that was considered cheating. True, we have no admin, but still, what would GWT's response be if we suddenly raised a racket that we get certain info by replaying past turns to "take peeks"? I'm sorry but I could never condone such a thing especially considering that we've always prided ourselves in sticking to the spirit of this demo game (if that spirit still exists, that's another issue entirely). I also detest the fact that we ALWAYS end up smelling rats whenever things don't go our way. Face it, we won't have a winning streak from here to the end, there will be bumps on the road, and there may very well be walls. I think, sadly, that some of us have some sort of idea that just because we excel at efficiency and perfectionism we somehow DESERVE to win this game and that there is no way we could lose. That is not true, no-where is it written that we are sure to win, and we might very well lose against a team which is far less efficient than us, but got lucky with their starting position, had an incompetent neighbor, and was highly skilled at war. Please, let's shrug off this invincibility attitude we have and accept the fact that we might very well have been out-thought by GWT who conveniently placed galleys on likely invasion paths. It's either that or blame everything on everyone else... that Trip tipped them off by bragging that we could invade them in 10 turns.... that Lucky loaded the save in SP and saw our fleet and tipped them off... that GWT made cheesy galley exploitation tricks, etc. etc. etc. So, no we will NOT hold the save until we clear this issue up, we will play as soon as orders are up (and I'll personally see to it with Kloreep that they are up today) and we'll play it. Our concern right now is to make the best moves we can to land somewhere in GWT, our duty is to outskill them at war for once. We can do it. -MZ

MZ, you were one of the first people that made the statement that there might have been some Improperity byt GWT in this. Actually, you and BF where in total agreement about this, while I was the one saying that we might have goofed.

But after thinking about what you al had said, and looking further, not only at what they could have seen, but the disposition of the Naval Units (that we had seen) that really got me thinking that there was more than we knew as to what is happening.

Could we have goofed, in having a Unit(s) in sight of possible GWT Units at LZ 4 AND/OR down to the south? Very Possible.

But then, why didn;t they just keep that one Unit, at the LZ 4 position where it was instead of moving it to the LZ 1 Position?? Was it to let us get closer, to see that they had blocked the landing site??

Or was it even at the LZ 4 position to begin with?? If not there, then they very likey place for it to be, would have been the LZ 1-1 spot (along with the other at the current spot of LZ 7-7). If there were just 2 Units, in that area, at the time, the best places to cover the most area would have been the LZ 1-1 & LZ 7-7 OR would have been the LZ 1-1 and the LZ 4. So, why did they move them, if they didn;t see our boats

Now, then there is the issue of the other Boat (AIS Zealious), and possibly being seen from a more southern Forted/sentried Galley. If so, that is only 1 boat and then, the disposition of the other 2 are not consitant with seeing just that one boat, but maybe with seeing all of the boats (via that exploit).

Again, I want this to be as fair as possible. I also don;t want to have the suspicion of cheating to sour anything between us, in the future (as the issues with Lucky have caused). So, I posted this, to let it be debated, to "poke holes" in my suppositions (of which, in reality, no one has yet to do) and to see about setting this issue, once and for all. To do that, we have 2 options:

1) get a 3rd party to investigate, because Mongoose is AWOL with a broken computer (which, also would be the best time for someone TO do something improper).

2) look at last turn, ourselves. Move some of the units, to see if we were seen and if so, then we go from there. If not, then we continue to look to see if LZ was clear at the time.

Granted, there might not be any units at those spots. GWT might have sent out a Suicide Galley, to take units over to try to take out CGN, in their Exile city, and spoted us and then sank, before we had seen it. Possible, but truely not likely (as it would have been atmost, 25% chance to survive the trip). They could have gotten Intel, from some chatroom, somewhere, from someone making a slip about it (from ANYONE who knew about the OP, US CFC & CGN). Please note, that I'm not saying anything about anyone here, nor am I implying that someone on our team did anything along that line, I'm just pointing out all of the possibilites. I trust, that we can trust all of our members, new and old, from being a "spy" and not to give Intel out (especially after Trip's chat with Lucky & Bongo). All very good things that are justifiable, but that we can;t be certain about.

The thing is, we don;t know. Maybe they got intel from GCA, with them doing things that aren;t legal in any sense (from hacking the save to hacking the forum). If so, and they moved units in responce to that Intel, and not due to them seeing us, then we will have the proof that we had wanted, along time ago, about GCA cheating.

But the thing is, until we can, atleast at this point in time, say for certain what did happen, how will that effect things in the future and the future of this game, without having a "taint" of this issue from being carried forward??

So, lets do something about it??

E_T

	27-07-2004 04:55									#43
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E_T,

I am not saying that I completely deny any wrongdoing here. I stand by what I said to BF, to Sharpe, to many others that it was highly suspicious that they knew were were coming and that it could've have been through many means (the Lucky channel being the most probable IMO).

My point is, why do we even start threads about this, fume over it, lose sleep over it, and HOLD TURNS because of it? It is ridiculous. Just because one team anticipated us, that does not correlate to cheating. And yes, you can find a million ways in which your opponent out-thought you though illegal means, but what's the point? We complained when Lucky did it because it was all too obvious that there was foul play involved. Not here.

So again, I do not speak for the consulate but I for one will not stand for delaying this turn anymore just to satisfy the wishes of a couple of people who refuse to accept the fact that GWT could have legitimately blocked us.

-MZ

	27-07-2004 11:06									#44
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Even if we get a game admin to look at this (look at vondracks explanation); we cannot ever prove they cheated. It sure would look very fishy if the game admin took a close look and saw that GWT did not have a sea wall set up prior to the previous turn or that GWT could not have seen our arrival forces withotu making some sort of weird manuevers. By "weird" I mean that if they had Galley's forted at certain postions for a certain number of tunrs, but then moved then to a position so that they could "see" us on the turn prior, then that would be fishy.

I can go on and on and explain why or how things could lead one to belive that it's most likely they cheated (not that I yet beleive it's "most likely" yet) but it really won't ever prove they cheated.

It's cool to go ahead and have an admin look at things; but we should just move on and make other plans.

This is to those that are mostly lurkers/occasional posters around here:
You do not have as much time and effort put into this game at some of the few others. Don't be so quick to judge E_T (or others) on his suspicions. The more you put into this game the less happy you'd be when and if you suspected cheating going on (and it's not like we haven't seen it before in this game!)

The lurker around here, while they would like to see us win, does not have that much invested in it. E_T and a few other are emotionally tied to this game. You can't have it both ways and expect him to just blow his suspicions off. If he were capable of that he wouldn't put in the type of work he does for the team.

	27-07-2004 17:29									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Aidun the last phrase in my previous post is sarcastic, not without reason. It has happened more than once that one of us said something that was considered at least controversial by others and that person received not very positive comments. But when things turned out as he predicted, he was praised by all. That is lettling yourself swayed by the direction of the "political" "wind".

Changing your view in the face of reality and facts is not "sway[ing] by the direction of the political wind." Its called sanity.

	27-07-2004 22:12									#46
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel Changing your view in the face of reality and facts is not "sway[ing] by the direction of the political wind." Its called sanity.

Reminds me of that old Bugs Bunny cartoon with Christopher Columbus: "The earth - she be flat. No. No. No. The earth - she be round."

quote: Originally posted by BigFree This is to those that are mostly lurkers/occasional posters around here: You do not have as much time and effort put into this game at some of the few others. Don't be so quick to judge E_T (or others) on his suspicions. The more you put into this game the less happy you'd be when and if you suspected cheating going on (and it's not like we haven't seen it before in this game!) The lurker around here, while they would like to see us win, does not have that much invested in it. E_T and a few other are emotionally tied to this game. You can't have it both ways and expect him to just blow his suspicions off. If he were capable of that he wouldn't put in the type of work he does for the team.

BF - vaild point. To a degree. I agree that a lurker may not have as much invested emotionally in the game, but this may be an advantage at times - an ability perhaps to see an issue from a more detatched perspective, and therefore more objectively. That being said, I am not criticizing E_T for his suspicians. After this game - we probably all harbour a few, regardless of the team.

But - we should not re-play turns from the last save. That is clearly outside the spirit and intent of the game. And as the one who took the oath on behalf of the team, I would be both upset and disappointed.

As has been suggested by a number of folks, I say we play on. GWT have been pretty noble players in both this game and the ptwdg. They are valued memebrs of the Poly community in the other game. I can't beleive they would resort to exploits in this game; they, as do we, have too much at stake. Our honour.

	28-07-2004 00:10									#47
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I strongly suggest both playing on, and contacting GWT for a private chat about what occurred.

-Arrian

	28-07-2004 06:09									#48
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Only other option is to have a "temp" admin review the previous saves. Probably the best option, but difficult to arrange and get everyone to agree to on the fly.