25-07-2004 21:22									#1
	Starting to Smell a Rat Increase the size of your Attachments

Yesterday, while in Chat, after we found the LZ blocked, there were some views expressed, dealing with possible cheating, in relationship to our Impending Landing. At the time, with the chat with CFC and a possible panic in the streets, I didn't give it that much thought.

But now, after letting the thought bounce around in my head, I'm starting to smell a Rat, too.

This Picture shows the Fortified/sentry views of any GWT Galleys at the X marks. Our Units are in the Position that they were, at the start of last turn. They Yellow Tracks show their Moves that turn. The Orange Tracks show the moves they had made, the previous turn (to get where they are now).



I'll now work on a sim, to fully test the sentry function, because there might be something about that that we don;t fully understand, in relationship to this situation.

E_T

	25-07-2004 21:43									#2
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We would need a game admin to verify things. I'm with E_T in suspecting that something is amiss...

	25-07-2004 21:53									#3
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I don't think we should suspect anything without any further evidence. It's more important to figure out what we should do now instead of trying to argue that the situation shouldn't exist at all.

	25-07-2004 22:28									#4
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the thing is, when it comes to a Game Admin, we currently don't have one. Micco told me, that Mongoose's computer has been broken for a little while and there is no telling as to when he's get it fixed/replaced.

E_T

	25-07-2004 22:36									#5
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We don't really have any evidence of cheating though. They could have had a forted galley at 4 of the LZ, which is the most logical place to attack their very vulnerable FP at Ruhr.

	25-07-2004 22:36									#6
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I really see no reason to suspect GWT considering there is a tile from which a forted galley would have easily seen our stack last turn.

	25-07-2004 23:08									#7
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And what does a rat smell like?

Ask yourself this question: Is it more likely that they had a fortified sentry at 4 of the LZ, or that someone on our team is spying for GWT?

If they did have a spy and advanced warning of the attack, would their defenses be hastily rushed into position in the form of 2 spears from the neighboring cities and a horseman? Wouldn't they have Ansars already waiting for us?

I'm sorry, but the evidence is very clear that they just noticed us last turn and are scrambling to cover their shore. The ridiculous assumptions need to be put to rest.

If we're going to start assuming that GWT is cheating, then we may as well not even play this game.

--Togas

	26-07-2004 00:21									#8
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I agree with the above posts

we knew many turns ago that GWT had a handful of galleys on that coastline. I can't recall how many. It makes sense to plant them near their FP, especially considering the ansar horde is covering the southlands.

skill? Luck? maybe
"lucky"? I hope not. why continue?

	26-07-2004 02:57									#9
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O.k., I did some testing of sentried sea units. While I did this, I figured out a new Exploit (actually, 2 of them).

First off, the sentry testing.

If you have a sea unit set up as sentry, it will give you the expanded view, like a Forted Sea Unit.

If, we move into and then out of their view, they don;t wake up. So, last turn, we could have moved AIS Herioc 1 tile in and then back out and it wouldn;t have waken them up. The same goes for the 3 boats that we had sent on that round about route, if we had just sent them staight on through, they wouldn;t have woken up.

If you move next to them or pass them, they will wake up, but you have to get that close for them to do that.

Now for the Exploit(s)

First one: If your the VERY Last player (like GWT), in a PBEM and you fortify a sea unit, after you hit the end of turn button AND before you save the turn, you can see the expanded view at that time.

Second one: For any PBEM position, After you hit the EOT button AND before you save the turn, you can click on any unit, move them with the keypad (Mouse won;t work), Use other Keyboard commands, and then save the turn. The turn status gets saved AT THE TIME that you hit the O.K. button for the filename that you want to save it under.

The Really, Really Big one: This combines the first 2. Lets say, that GWT had a galley, at the LZ 1-1 position (and not one at the LZ 4). They move that Unit out 4 (fortify it), hit END OF TURN, It doesn;t sink, they see us (all of our boats), they click on it and move it back (9-6) to the one position that we found it in , they click on and move via the keypad, the other blocking units AND THEN they save the turn. We get the turn and see what we have so far seen.

E_T

	26-07-2004 03:04									#10
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Now, at this time, we have no admin to go to and ask them to review any of this. Mongoose is AWOL with a broken computer and we don;t have a backup for him.

So, what do we do, to atleast verify that we could have been spotted (by normal means), by forted/sentry Gallies at the 2 possible places? We load up last turn, we move some of the boats to see what was at those places, at that time. If there is something there, then case closed, if not, then there would have been no way that they would have spotted us. One of the boats IS also in a position, that it could check out the LZ, from where it started at the begining of that turn.

E_T

	26-07-2004 03:22									#11
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Another option that we can do, is to see if we can get a third party to take over the Admin duties for Mongoose, atleast until his return. One possiblity is the C3CISDG admins. They would have to get all of the Passwords for each of the teams and they can check all of this out for us.

E_T

	26-07-2004 03:28									#12
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While that is a disturbing possibility, I still see no reason to think GWT cheated to see our fleet.

And I think even they would acknowledge such a maneuver as beyond game mechanics and even questionable exploits. If they did this, they're loading up saves in single player as well and this game is over anyway. But, as I said, I don't think they're doing this.

And I don't want to use such a dirty re-play manuever without VERY good reason to suspect cheating, even if the intent is not to give ourselves an unfair advantage. It's something we should not be doing, and we don't know what information we might gain that would help us regardless of our intent.

Edit: I would be okay with getting a new admin and having them look at the save.

	26-07-2004 03:33									#13
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question:

this is all very nice and informative BUT... how will this change the fact GWT knows we're coming?

	26-07-2004 03:35									#14
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Interesting research. Still Togas has a strong point. However, if I understand you well, you can check if the two galleys were on the spot we have supposed they have been (LZ-4 or LZ-West). Please check that and clarify the issue so that we don't need to speculate anymore. If you can find out what has happened and can guarantee for 100% that there is no coincidence or legal option, then we can confront GWT with it and debate the issue with them.

Thanks for your watchfulness E_T.

Aidun

	26-07-2004 03:36									#15
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It wouldn't be the first time that GWT would have done a "end of turn" exploit from what I recall - CGN delayed the game for some time due to GWT moving and fortifying units on hills IIRC (feel free to correct me if I am wrong re the details)

	26-07-2004 03:42									#16
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on 2 occasions, that we know of.

E_T

	26-07-2004 03:46									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen question: this is all very nice and informative BUT... how will this change the fact GWT knows we're coming?

Well, IF we get an Admin to take care of this AND they do find out that something is definately wrong, they can get GWT to replay their turn and not move the units that they had done, in responce to any ill gained knowledge. Also, for all intents and purposes, this game would be over and GWT's name would be Mud (along with GCA's).

E_T

	26-07-2004 03:49									#18
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quote: Originally posted by E_T Another option that we can do, is to see if we can get a third party to take over the Admin duties for Mongoose, atleast until his return. One possiblity is the C3CISDG admins. They would have to get all of the Passwords for each of the teams and they can check all of this out for us. E_T

Actually, they could check up on what we want checked as soon as they accept the job. All they need to see if there's a galley where there should be to spot us is our 730 AD save and password.

	26-07-2004 03:50									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Sharpe It wouldn't be the first time that GWT would have done a "end of turn" exploit from what I recall - CGN delayed the game for some time due to GWT moving and fortifying units on hills IIRC (feel free to correct me if I am wrong re the details)

Eh, 1 "exploit" involved fortifying of units. Which isn't really even an exploit. It's simply part of the game mechanics. They can move their units and attack, then fortify. Then when the turn is sent to the first player, their units are automatically fortified. It isn't so much a game exploit as it is a misunderstanding of how game mechanics work.

The other exploit I believe involved how workers and units can move multiple tiles if you use the goto command and you are the last player in a turn. Again, this is more of a misunderstanding in my opinion.

I highly doubt their mentality in either situation was to specifically screw over CGN. I know myself and some other PBEM memebers used these tactics and didn't realize they were exploitish until we found out other players COULDN'T use them since they weren't the last turn player.

	26-07-2004 03:53									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Kloreep Actually, they could check up on what we want checked as soon as they accept the job. All they need to see if there's a galley where there should be to spot us is our 730 AD save and password.

Well, lets get working on it, because I for one, don;t want to pass on the save, until we get some form of answer.

E_T

	26-07-2004 04:25									#21
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Pretty tough to admit that we were beat this round, ain't it?

Let's regroup and figure out a new plan rather than blaming our failures on other teams cheating.

	26-07-2004 04:29									#22
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Well, if it does turn out to be cheating, then it's not our failure, is it??

E_T

	26-07-2004 04:40									#23
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Let's not tarnish Poly's reputation by holding the save on the hope that there was cheating going on. We can overcome this.

edit: easy for me to say I've put a microscopic amount of time into this game.

	26-07-2004 04:45									#24
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quote: Originally posted by E_T Well, lets get working on it, because I for one, don;t want to pass on the save, until we get some form of answer. E_T

So you're saying that rather than dealing with the situation at hand we should screw around with admins and accuse GWT of cheating?

GWT aren't cheats and, IMO, there is nothing in this thread or in the save that should lead anyone to believe there was foul play.

Just as the suggestion of a "rat" is not on.

What the hell happened to this team?

	26-07-2004 05:08									#25
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I see this as grasping at straws. Now had we landed and got to the next turn to find our entire force was erradicated with no noticable losses for GWT, then I'd be wondering with the rest of you.

But the fact that they are guarding their most vulnerable point, a point thats been obviously vulnerable to us for many, many turns (so many that we've planned this massive buildup) doesn't scream cheat to me.

Heck they could even of been leaving those spears & horses sitting there during most of the CGN war to make sure they get a 2 turn warning if we did try to take out their FP. The arguments against these are they are a cruddy spear & horse defense, but if your goal is to delay a landing/attack scheme them it doesn't make any difference what they use (they could use workers just as well).



With that said, I do support trying to get a new game admin setup before any _real_ issues arise especially before we do make landfall....somewhere.

	26-07-2004 05:46									#26
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I agree with wervdon.

Crap units like horsemen & spearmen are easy & quick to produce (when cutting your iron) and make a handy sea wall.
(I've used workers as a sea wall in some PBEM's)
There is no need to leave units within your city unless you need MP.

Your speedy units are better suited as a sea wall further away, because they can quickly retreat back & move forward to where a LZ could appear.

The LZ we chose, is an obvious invasion point that we gambled on being uncovered...and it wasnt.

It's just good basic play by GWT.....no rats.

	26-07-2004 13:15									#27
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I think non of us considers GWT cheaters, but that doesn't mean that they haven't done so.

If all criminals in the world would voluntarily accept punishment and if nobody would break a law, then we wouldn't need police in this world. No police to find the criminals and no police to punish them.

Unfortunately, this is not the case. If people break a law, they don't admit that publicly, they hide it. And when you meet such a person, perhaps a good friend of you, you wouldn't think that he broke a law. "He's not the kind of person to do so," you will say. BUT you don't know, YOU ASSUME.

I would like to see this team stop assuming and to stop marking a person's ideas or commens as rediculous. THAT will ultimately destroy the spirit of the team.

Last but not least I ask those that ridiculed E_T's ideas to not praise E_T for the research he did if he is succesful, please stick to your opinion rather than to let it be swayed by the direction the wind is blowing from.

Aidun

	26-07-2004 17:00									#28
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Why is no-one looking at THIS?!

quote: Originally posted by E_T We load up last turn, we move some of the boats to see what was at those places, at that time. If there is something there, then case closed, if not, then there would have been no way that they would have spotted us. One of the boats IS also in a position, that it could check out the LZ, from where it started at the begining of that turn. E_T

Bingo. This is a good idea. As it is LAST turn this would be performed on, the knowledge could not affect the turn we have now, and we could test the cheating hypothesis. I too believe it is ridiculous to cry foul with no proof whatsoever. However if we have a way of testing (like E_T has mentioned) that doesn't give us an unfair advantage (and if handled properly only by a Consul or two there would be nothing gained out of it beyond evidence/peace of mind about that form of cheating).

There is no downside unless someone believes this gives us a cheating advantage, and we could at least silence this cheating talk (which has no grounds ATM beyond a flimsy suspicion), and at best find some evidence to back up those claims.

We had BETTER do this tomorrow.

	26-07-2004 17:33									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Aidun I would like to see this team stop assuming and to stop marking a person's ideas or commens as rediculous. THAT will ultimately destroy the spirit of the team. Last but not least I ask those that ridiculed E_T's ideas to not praise E_T for the research he did if he is succesful, please stick to your opinion rather than to let it be swayed by the direction the wind is blowing from. Aidun

I think you need to get thicker skin. Where's the ridicule? I thought it was a civil thread, much more so than some I've seen around here.

	26-07-2004 17:54									#30
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I have to admit that E_T's suggestion to check the previous save (supported above by MWIA) sounds attractive. However... let's take this a bit further: if we move the galley E and see a fortified GWT galley at LZ 4, case closed - we were spotted, cool.

But if we do not see it? Will that be a proof?

Would we move it even further E to see whether those cheap units were there occupying the coast? If they're there, would it prove anything? And if they're NOT there, would it prove anything either?

Even in the worst (most "smelly") scenario, if the GWT galleys were out of range and the shore was clear on the previous turn, all we would gain would be just an indirect clue. OK, GWT moved a few cheap units to block some exposed tiles. This is a move one can do at any time with no particular reason - "just noticed we had some tiles exposed and used cheap units to block them; unlikely it's really needed, but one never knows". And that they made the move just a single turn before our landing? That's a probability around 1:20 to 1:30, I'd say... last time we based our case on probabilities, it was how much? 1 in 6 million? And where did we get with that?

Besides... if we did this, we would gain information going beyond "completely fair". We would find out that GWT either: a) moved the units to the shore merely by a coincidence and probably did not suspect an invasion or b) is cheating.

Unfortunately, the "a)" is an unfair advantage.

So... I do not think I would support using the previous save to check LZ 4. Not because I'd consider it cheating - checking LZ 4 alone would be ok with me. But I do not think we would help our suspicions the slightest bit: a fortified galley at LZ 4? Everything ok, "replay" was not needed. No fortified galley at LZ 4? No new "evidence" gathered, no new evidence available without venturing into the dark, "replay" was not needed. Hence - "replay" was not needed in either case...

Finding a forted galley of GWT at LZ 4 would indeed get rid of false suspicions. But finding none there would only double our suspicions for - taken strictly logically, that is - no good reason.