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vmxa1
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Oviedo, Fl
Nov 2001
time: 21:35
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I did not read all the post above, but I am sure they had lots of good things to say. The spacing I know was mentioned, but to me worse than that is there are no roads to many of the cities.
You should have roads to the next city site most of the time. I can understand at times that is not going to be the case, but not half the time.
Paris is working on the GL with 53 more turns, why bother? If you need that much time, it is not worth it. Actually it should have already been built by 350BC.
This is done by two methods:
1) get the tech much sooner
2) have a city that is much bigger and tiles improved.
I am not even talking about a prebuild here. I get the GL on sid with no prebuild by 825BC to 350BC depending on a number of factors. 750bc is the norm. To do it you could have a number of workers that will be mining the tiles and then get added to the city once they finish their tile. So you have at least a size 10 and better a size 12 with 9 or more shield producing tiles. Maybe 3 or more doing 2, if you are lucky.
You just cannot build wonders with a size 3 city. I am presuminmg you are not using the GL as a prebuild here.
So to not be too cruel here, you really made almost no effort to get the empire pumping. I would want to see all tiles in the core cities at least roaded. No cities stuck way off in the distant, I do not even care if you had a resource there.
It will be of little use in a good game as you cannot defend it and it is not part of the network. With all that jungle, I want closer cities to make it so I do not need to clear quite as much. I want a ton of workers to get it cleared.
Do not worry about the AI grabbing land, it will not be able to hold it anyway.
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vmxa1
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Oviedo, Fl
Nov 2001
time: 21:35
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I don't bother with this much except at sid. They have about twice the production (effectively) for the same size city, so you need to be twice a productive to be equal.
So you will be facing an AI with size 4 to 6 most likely with its big production bonus. You need to have some way to offset it. This can only be done with a better production of tiles and a larger citizen work crew. Later you can do it again with use of plants and then factories, before the AI starts to use them (even if they beat you to the tech).
After that you need to force them into facism or something to cripple their production and have a prebuild to beat them to a wonder.
Then as T says, you have to be able to use all citizens, no entertainers. At Warlord this is not hard as you have the first three born content. So you need a couple of lux and a temple and the slider maybe.
I tend to use 6 workers with the city at size 6. The 6 workers can mine the tiles they will work and then join. Boom instant size 12 with all tiles improved. Now one or even two may have to be irrigated and many will only have 1 shield, but that will be way ahead of the AI at warlord. Chances are it will be building settlers still.
If you are first to Lit and have even just a 2 to 4 turn prebuild, that is plenty. I often will not have a decent prebuild at high levels as I do not have Mason or I am using the capitol.
I like to build my embassies soon after I start the GL so I can see if anyone has a jump on me. I don't want to end up eating 150 or more shields for a lib.
Last edited by vmxa1 on 28-07-2004 at 19:57
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I'mNowCivilized
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Ok, based on your comments I have a series of questions to ask. Then I am most likely going to start that game over.
1) Does the C-X-X-X-C/C-X-X-C rule take priority over a spot with a resource or luxury?
2) Is there a preferred order of researching techs?
3) Is there a preferred order of building city improvements?
4) Is it worth it to use forests and jungles for defense when settling cities?
5) When you are building roads, should you plan on settling your cities along those roads so that the city is settled and connected at the same time?
6) At what point is it wise to start wars with the AI? Even though you can win, is it still good to hold off?
7) Is it ever advisable to land grab across oceans?
8) What, on average, is the number of turns a wonder should be completed in?
9) Early in the game are wonders even worth going after, since later discoveries will render them obsolete anyway? I know you get the culture bonus, but is that worth it?
10) At what point do you stop building cities?
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Solomwi
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Don King of the Apolyton HLA Movement
Dec 2002
time: 23:35
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1. To an extent, yes. You're going to get that resource/lux at some point anyway, but by the same token, it's a factor to consider in deciding where to settle. So there's really no pat answer other than you still shouldn't let it take you wider than CxxxC. To try to clarify, if there's a patch of four wines right next to Carthage's border, but in striking distance if I send my settler now, I'll get it, but in deciding where to settle, I'll factor in being able to backfill the area.
2. There is no one preferred tech path. At some levels, you may want to grab whatever the AI won't, while at other levels, you can just forge ahead with whatever tech suits your needs best. If I'm playing the Iroquois, I may want to hold off HBR until I have 20 chariots to upgrade. If I'm playing Egypt, I may want to grab HBR quick to avoid triggering my GA too soon. Alexman wrote an excellent article on AI research preferences at CFC.
3. Again, not really. You don't want to put a granary in a desert city, since it won't be growing enough to take advantage of the effects. Likewise, you don't want an early barracks in a one shield producer, since it won't be building units, unless it's on a hostile frontier, for healing purposes. It also depends on whether you want to play as builderer or warmonger, or somewhere in between. It's a matter of deciding what your priorities are for that particular city, rather than finding a magic bullet build order.
4. Unless you mean the surrounding tiles, no. Setlling clears the square, eliminating the defense bonus. Hills may be worth it in some cases, but I find that to be a very small factor in CP decisions, since most of my wars are likely to be on foreign soil.
5. Your roads should always either lead somewhere or provide commerce for worked tiles, preferably both. So yes, you should build roads with an eye toward where you want to settle.
6. Anytime you can inflict more damage on him than he on you.  I usually wait for a little provocation (like AI attitude going to cautious or the leaderhead bobbing the wrong way), but not always. This, again, depends more on playstyle and goals than anything, assuming you're strong enough to carry the war. If you're going for a UN victory, it's not going to be wise in a given situation where it would be wise if you're trying for a conquest victory. Generally, if my military advisor says I'm average or strong compared to an AI, I'll go to war as soon as logistics permit. If he says I'm weak compared to the AI, it may just be time to go to war and kill some of those units, bringing the AI down to my level.
6. Not until later in the game, after your home continent is settled. But by that time, the only land grab available overseas is through conquest, so if you mean peaceful settling, no.
8. Depends on the cost of the wonder, the age you're in and how much of a tech lead you have. No prebuild, I'd say 20-35 turns isn't a bad number. Anymore than that and you're probably not going to get it unless you have a healthy tech lead.
9. Some are worthwhile, like the Pyramids, because they don't expire. Some others, like Hanging Gardens and Colossus, expire later enough that they can be worthwhile. Generally, though, ancient wonders cost too much in terms of what else that city could be producing to be worthwhile. I prefer to let others build them for me to take. The culture bonus doesn't make it worthwhile unless you're going for a cultural victory, or trying to prevent flips.
10. When there's literally nowhere left to cram them in. Some prefer to keep a small empire, not bothering to found what will be non-producing cities. I want as many as I can get, for unit support and to keep the AI from settling the land, as well as potential future resources.
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vmxa1
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Oviedo, Fl
Nov 2001
time: 21:35
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quote:
Originally posted by I'mNowCivilized
8) What, on average, is the number of turns a wonder should be completed in?
9) Early in the game are wonders even worth going after, since later discoveries will render them obsolete anyway? I know you get the culture bonus, but is that worth it?
10) At what point do you stop building cities? |
There is no average, wonders have varing cost in shielfs and come at varing stages of the game.
A 400 shields wonder is not as hard to build as 1000 shileds one. It could be build faster though, if the 400 was an early ancient one and the 1000 one was a modern one.
I consider how many shileds I am getting per turn and how many my opponents get. What the level is, as the discount can get to 50%. So if I am looking at 400 shields, but the AI cost is only 200, I need to be able to out produce them and have a head start.
Often the value is less as a possesion than it is a denial.
The last is tough. To a degree you may need to keep aquiring cities to get the dom or conquest. You mqay need them to make it easier to get to the next target (use of roads).
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gunkulator
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quote:
Originally posted by vmxa1
I tend to use 6 workers with the city at size 6. The 6 workers can mine the tiles they will work and then join. Boom instant size 12 with all tiles improved. Now one or even two may have to be irrigated and many will only have 1 shield, but that will be way ahead of the AI at warlord. Chances are it will be building settlers still.
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Question about this: I'm assuming you have to crank up the luxury % to have 12 working citizens in the early/mid game. So what do you do with the city after you've built the wonder? Gold and research are surely suffering during the long stretch of wonder building. Do you start cranking out workers to reduce the city to a more managable size?
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vmxa1
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Oviedo, Fl
Nov 2001
time: 21:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Solomwi
Usually, when I'm able to do that, it's late enough that I have a temple, a few luxuries flowing in, and maybe even a marketplace in the city. |
I am not sure what this is in reply to, but if it is to the post of the GL, I am not going to have currency, so no markets.
I should stipulate that the whole concept of racing for Phil/Lit and the GL is probaly not as viable at lower levels with larger maps.
This could still work, but huts can pop all kinds of tech and mess things up. In that kind of a game, markets could exist. You could still beat the AI to the GL with power of the size 12 city. Especially as you will likely have a decent prebuild and the AI will not have the bonus.
So like any startegy, a game situation may make it fool hardy.
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Dominae
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Fine answers so far, but maybe I can add some stuff:
quote:
[SIZE=1] Originally posted by I'mNowCivilized 1) Does the C-X-X-X-C/C-X-X-C rule take priority over a spot with a resource or luxury?
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Not really; if you really need that resource or Luxury then you should forget any city placement rules. There's nothing inherently efficient about sticking to a particular pattern, be it 3-tile, OCP, ralphing, zenning, theseusing, ICSing, or whatever (actually, ring city placement is more efficient, but it's considered an exploit).
Of the above, I think 3-tile makes the most sense, because that's the distance at which all your cities will max out at size 12. But "3-tile" can mean a 4-tile or a 2-tile here and there, too.
I will almost always go out of my way to have a bonus Food resource within a city's non-expanded borders, regardless of placement. The only limiting factor being distance from the core; I'm not going to chase that Wheat 20+ tiles from my capital. Luxury resources are next important, followed by Strategic ones; you can usually wait for that Iron or Horses, but a Luxury resource you want ASAP.
quote:
2) Is there a preferred order of researching techs?
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No, but you want to research techs that the AI will not (so that you can trade it to the AI civs for all their stuff). alexman's guide (linked to above) is great for this. Techs like Bronze Working, Ceremonial Burial and even Iron Working seem important enough that you want to get them right away, but you can actually do without them until you're strong enough to trade for them. So you should be researching expensive stuff like Writing, Math, etc. Pottery is often a necessary first choice, because you need to build Granaries before you can reasonably expect to meet civs that know it.
quote:
3) Is there a preferred order of building city improvements?
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Not really. In the early-game, you want to specialize cities. Some will build Granaries, others Barracks, and others Temples (if you feel you need the Culture). After that you want to look toward making your cities as productive as possible, which means Harbors and Aqueducts. Then its Libraries and Marketplaces. Again, this is a hard and fast rule and should not be followed to the letter.
Of course, happiness is a major factor in your city growth, so you also need to sprinkle Temples, Cathedrals and Marketplaces in there somewhere. Because there's no obvious solution to this problem, the game remains interesting.
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4) Is it worth it to use forests and jungles for defense when settling cities?
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No. Use bumpy terrain to your advantage when available, but do not sacrifice your empire's economic power for it. Every Jungle or Forest could be hiding a Bonus Grassland!
quote:
5) When you are building roads, should you plan on settling your cities along those roads so that the city is settled and connected at the same time?
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This is ideal, but does not always work out in practice. Unless a new city access a Luxury or something, in which case you want it connected to your trade network ASAP, it's okay for a city to remain disconnected for up to 10 or so turns after it is founded. But again, it's ideal to have it connected right away.
quote:
6) At what point is it wise to start wars with the AI? Even though you can win, is it still good to hold off?
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When you can do significant damage with minimal losses to your own forces. Notice that this does not mean you need to capture any cities; sometimes you can wreak havoc with just 3 Archers while the AI is expanding.
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7) Is it ever advisable to land grab across oceans?
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Yes, but I would not go out of my way to do it unless I was stuck on some small resource-less island. It's easier to conquer that land later than to rush to Galleys to claim it first (the latter can fail, the former rarely does if you plan well).
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8) What, on average, is the number of turns a wonder should be completed in?
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20-30, I suppose. But you should be pre-building your Wonders way before you get the techs that allow them. Pre-building means you build something comparably expensive (the Palace is especially good for this), then switch over to the Wonder when you're ready to build it. Prebuilds help you claim almost any Medieval (and later) Wonder you want, since the AI does not employ this tactic. Early prebuilds often last longer than 30 turns; some players prebuild right away with their second city!
quote:
9) Early in the game are wonders even worth going after, since later discoveries will render them obsolete anyway? I know you get the culture bonus, but is that worth it?
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The Pyramids never go obsolete, and are worth it (at your difficulty level, at least).
The Great Lighthouse goes obsolete, but is often worth it on certain maps (Archipelagos).
The Great Library goes obsolete (and a good thing, too!), but is often worth it if you set it up right.
All the other ones you can easily do without.
quote:
10) At what point do you stop building cities?
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On everything but Huge maps: when there's no more room to build them. 
In other words, do what the AI does: expand horizontally, then vertically. There are exceptions (see: prebuilds), but this is a good general rule.
Last edited by Dominae on 29-07-2004 at 04:58
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Solomwi
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Don King of the Apolyton HLA Movement
Dec 2002
time: 23:35
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What do you mean by not working out right?
A couple of things I notice from this shot...
First, look at your empire in the minimap compared to the AI's. Land area looks roughly comparable, but you've got 17 cities, if I counted right, where the typical AI has half that many. You've given yourself a big advantage there. 
Second, even though you seem to be playing a builderer game, Germany is ripe for the picking. You don't need musketeers and pikes in the southern end of your empire, as there's no threat. Fortify your northerrn border, then use knights to knock Bismarck onto that island. Seriously, a one city thin enemy means a very limited border to control once you start taking his cities. Start at the western end and roll his empire up city by city, or if you have enough knights, take it all in a single turn, maybe two. It may be useful as a buffer with the civ north of them (China?), but it looks like a juicy target to me.
There's one major issue, though. What are you doing still in despotism while researching electricity?!?  I'd wager this is the cause of your problems, because other than troop placement, everything else looks okay. Get out of depotism ASAP (I suggest Republic), especially if you take my advice on attacking Germany. The first time he loses to one of your musketeers, you'll have your Golden Age, if you haven't already, and you want to avoid a despotic GA if possible. Really, anything would be better, just get out of despotism NOW!
Did I mention you should have a revolution and get out of despotism? 
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28-07-2004 08:20
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