29-07-2004 05:20									#31
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I voted Chewed On.

	29-07-2004 08:45									#32
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Actually, if you do a democracy, doing a green with the Cyborgs isn't that bad. Consider it this way, they have great advantages, and practically no disadvantages...

Of course, it all matters on strategy. If you don't care for efficiency and cybernetic, you probably don't want to play them...

	29-07-2004 10:34									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident yeah they can't run green because of it.

Demo and Green will balance the growth though. Just jump to Planned for short bursts of GA pop boom growth.

	29-07-2004 14:10									#35
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Why run green as Cycon though? They've already got +2 effic, so demo+FM is a far better SE for +4 effic and +2 econ. Hopefully add wealth, and then GA in planned keeping the +2 econ.

	29-07-2004 20:53									#36
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WooHoo.....we have a vote for the Sporelauncher Galactic Empire. May the spores be with you.

On the other hand, I am shocked to see only two votes for the Data Angels. For as much banter as I heard around here about how great they are, but only two people put their money where their mouth is.

	30-07-2004 00:25									#37
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I voted Drones because they're most suited to my style of play. The early drone quelling with Free Market makes them very easy to spread early while maintaining tremendous energy income, which more than makes up for the 20% research penalty. Later on, the industry bonuses REALLY help with almost any strategy, although I personally play them as a builder.

Green as Cycon: Even in a paradigm economy, you can still get bureaucracy drones, and with your curtailed growth, a high-density ICS can really help overcome some of the Cyborgs' weaknesses. So I can definitely see a use for green. Also, don't forget that Green is a spectacular SE choice for early warfare. It doesn't take too many captured worms to enhance your ground forces on the prowl, and most folks haven't had too much opportunity to clear out fungus from their home base area.

Nobody likes an Angel: Despite their proximity to IA, the Angels don't really have too much to recommend to themselves. IA by itself is nice, but it's far more useful when you've got the terraforming in place to make use of it. For a flexible faction that can pursue almost any strategy, the Drones are far stronger, so I'm not shocked that they're not too high in the voting.

Pirates: I'm quite shocked that there are as many devoted Pirates. Myself, I've always been an ardent detractor of all things Sven. Poor early drone defense, more expensive terraforming and growth problems in the early game, the only thing the Pirates have going for them is that their bases are so ghetto that usually they get left alone for a good long time. Sure, once the energy shackles come off, their terraforming starts to pay off, but that can be a long time coming.

	30-07-2004 02:04									#38
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I think why the Angels get so little votes is because, while people generally tend to like them (or at least, not dislike as much as the others), they tend to like other factions more, although said other factions may be anyone.

So you get a lot of, "Yeah, the Angels are cool but Insert Faction Here is cooler."

	30-07-2004 12:28									#39
	Full PM-box? Change here!

The Pirates have cheaper terraforming at sea, and obviously the same on land. The sea formers are more expensive, but you need fewer of them than an equivalent area on land using any forming other than forest and forget. But I suspect most people are doing like I did, and voting for this faction because it's fun to play.

	30-07-2004 20:06									#40
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you can play fast and loose with the pirates. You don't have to worry about defense for a long time. Sure eventually other factions get Flexibility. But you already have had ships out for a long time, so even that's not a threat.

I never really see a threat until air power comes around.

	02-08-2004 16:02									#41
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Gameplay - Drones all that money and fast industry is too addictive for me.

Ideology - Cybernetic Conciousness, just a cool theme humans forsaking their humanity to become cyborgs and incredibly intelligent

Fun - Pirates, starting out at sea with Doctrine flexibility is just really nice and they play so differently from any other faction.

So I gave my vote to Drones as this poll was based on gameplay.

	04-08-2004 04:21									#42
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Maybe Aki has just become a habit since she is default, but i like the research rate and she is my mayor conqurer - ususally get the last bastard in early 24's (thinker level).

Svensgaard is also a high vote but i prefer him as enemy - just let him bulid his empire for as many rounds as possible and then take it all in 15 - 20 rounds with a couple of gunships and (of course) five to six 13-4-14*2 choppers (just did that in a transscend round). With a little atttention the concuered bases gives a substantional add to energy etc.

Marr. Yes, that is a mother****er. If you can thame the research, then Marr is unstoppable with the heavy guns/shields and empathty. I prefer that thing in the other end of the world when he is the opponement. Eaven if you try appeasment policy to him, you end up as Chamberlain did - full scal war. Well, being him is too easy. The Caretakers have the same problem.

Roze is good but takes too damn long time - it takes too long time before she is capabable to do serious conquering - i have trouble with 2500.

Haven't tried Drones seriously, but since they tend to be easy enemies i doubt them.

Cha Clown - well if i had maschocistic tendencies i would try - but when that is a no, then he too gets a no. It dosent help that i have problems with representing a faction that is based on fiction (and that i write on a gameplaysite - maybe i need a shrink :-) - really - i dont like religion - i think it is the greatest opponent to freedom and prosperity that has ever been invented.

	04-08-2004 05:01									#43
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I voted Pirates. they are really new, and reasonably balanced compared to the aliens. They get seafaring culture penalties, but not pluses(being able to send ships out during FM) .

Damn the Aliens are just rigged, I just played a bit with them, me controlling both in a hotseat game. Got a SP in the late 30s(cashed in I think 1 AA), and managed to sub pact Domai instantly(that free Ogre may just be too much). The Usurpers can't pop boom without GAs so they get a bit of the shaft, but they are still damned good And the caretakers can grab some worms before they go to FM, which is real nice, no one else has that benefit. If either gets the nexus they get research and planet.

Cha dawn doesn't get industry, and he can't get the +1 energy per square so hes not so good at first glance, but You can run Demo/Planned and just permantly pop boom, bring worms you capture back for Police duty, forest and forget,crawler abuse,etc and you'll do well. That means spreading out your bases though.

Drones are awesome, Got a monster Domai In my first transcend game who got into an ODP war with me, that +2 industry is awesome, rushing stuff is real cheap.

I've yet to play Roze, Her setup just doesn't appeal to me, and no comment on Cycon, their bonuses are very nice, can't pop boom easily but thats that.

	04-08-2004 05:30									#44
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Consider the factions that can't pop boom easily and what they get for it:

Aki: -1 growth, +2 effic, +2 research, stealtech, two starting techs, and impunity cybernetic. That's a lot.

Yang: +1 growth, +1 industry, immunity effic, -2 econ, and free perimeter defenses. That's also a lot.

Morgan: +1 econ, -1 support, -3 hab limits, +100 ECs, +1 commerce. That's not so nice, but the ability to either get +1 EC/tile without suffering, or +1 EC/tile and +4/base very early is decent.

Marr: +1 growth, +1 morale, -1 planet, +25% attack, free rec tanks, energy grid, 5 starting techs, battle ogre, colony pod, permanent vendetta with H'minee. That's very powerful.

Sven: -1 growth, -1 effic, free naval yards with Doc: Init (but you'll want the MCC anyway for the +2 movement), free Marine Detachment with Adaptive Doctrine, +1 mineral/sea shelf tile, starting units in the sea, late ability to improve non-shelf sea. That's pretty rotten (though it can certainly be fun). You get to pay double for your units at sea, and if you go to land for lower costs and better mineral outputs, your benefits are unused. Sea shelf is not good at minerals even with +1, and Pirates can't abuse crawlers as well as most factions.

	04-08-2004 06:39									#45
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Bovine Feces, Sven can pop boom, 4 food per square and crawlers .

	04-08-2004 08:00									#46
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I only recently installed crossfire and have not layed all the factions so I will not vote, but It seems to me that the factions are not well thought out.

CyCon results from an appaling logic error: it is impossible for a sentient algorith to jump to humand before MMI, which is decades into the game. The existance of an accidentally created sentient algorithm is also proof that sentient algorithms do not require N-space compression, which they do in the xpack, chalking up another critical flaw in the premise of this faction.

The Angels would not be a viable faction in RL or realistic fiction. They would collapse under their own weight like the puritans would have without native help.

The Drones work and are one of the few logically viable human factions in crossfire, but they can't go green and I rely on that for early warfare. In my attempt at them I'm finding that I can't run free market because I'm having to keep military units where they can get at the caretakers because I know my truce won't last long. I can't run planned because the efficiency hit would kill me with B-drones.

The pirates are playable. The efficiency hit is bad, but can be surmounted. The growth hit is minor because the sea produces so much food.

The Cult is another impossible faction. The leader is supposed to have been found in the fungus as a child, but he is leading them at planetfall. Ooops.

The aliens are both gravely flawed in terms of balance. At their current power levels they would have to arrive 10 to 15 turns later than they do, since they start with level 3 armor and have +25% to all combat, making them unkillable. Starting next to them seems to be a death sentence for most factions. I simply don't find the aliens fun either to play or as opponents.

	04-08-2004 14:53									#47
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Yah, CyCon I can agree with regarding the algorithm thingie. One should assume that at the very least Neural Grafting is an option in the early game (as a 'primitive' substitute).
Your remarks regarding the Angels are not clear to me, however. I don't see a reason why they're not viable.
Drones are very versatile even without having the green option (which would be quite controversial with the +2 Industry though). Run Demo/Planned, and your inefficiency problems are solved. B-drones can be solved by constructing HolTheatres or NetNodes and the Virtual World Project. So I don't see your problem there.
Regarding the Pirates, I'm currently involved in a PBEM in which I play with a custom seafaction which has -2 Growth, and I'm still (but barely) unsurpassed in that one. Don't tell me about growth at sea indeed!!
And the Cult. Actually the Cult does not make Planetfall, like the Progenitors they start a few years later ingame. Check it out.

	04-08-2004 16:18									#48
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Drones with Planned alone are fine - as far as bureaucracy is concernced, every faction has immunity to efficiency.

Originally, the Drones' aversion was Thought Control, not Green.

GeoModder: What do you get for your -2 Growth in that PBEM? I hope it's more useful than Sven's bonuses. Keep in mind that anyone can take to the sea for its nutrients.

	04-08-2004 16:47									#49
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Instead, I've got 0 effic, +2 Police (thinking of lowering it to +1) and +1 Probe. Also, bases need a Hab Complex to exceed size 4, and an aversion of Free Market is inherit as well.
O yes, the faction receives the Deep Pressure Hull ability upon the appropriate tech. And on top of that the faction bases are more or less 'hidden' untill the population size gets too big (they're meant as an undersea faction).

And everyone may go to see as much as he/she likes, but if most of the good spots are already occupied it won't do them much good.

	04-08-2004 17:21									#50
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They can run green, they just have to have democracy, a children's creche, or Eudaimonia to make up for it.

	04-08-2004 17:28									#51
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+2 Police is very nice, since with the Ascetic Virtues it's the magical +3. Garrisons are also important in cities to help with random IoD attacks. Might as well make them control drones, too.

+1 Probe is a bonus, if not terribly useful.

-3 hab limits is a nasty penalty by the time you get to size 11. On the other hand, it'll take you longer without proper pop booming.

Aversion Free Market hurts, but not that much, since sea tiles produce fantastic amounts of energy anyway, once restrictions are lifted. You can run Planned anyway, for a while.

Deep Pressure Hull for free won't do much in most games, as that comes so late.

Hidden bases are interesting, but does that really work? I'd think the name and size would be visible regardless of the base graphics.

IMO, the good spots are ones that are nearby. All sea shelf can make plenty of nutrients and energy. You aren't going to spread so much as to choke off the seas, on a reasonable map.

quote: Originally posted by GeoModder Instead, I've got 0 effic, +2 Police (thinking of lowering it to +1) and +1 Probe. Also, bases need a Hab Complex to exceed size 4, and an aversion of Free Market is inherit as well. O yes, the faction receives the Deep Pressure Hull ability upon the appropriate tech. And on top of that the faction bases are more or less 'hidden' untill the population size gets too big (they're meant as an undersea faction). And everyone may go to see as much as he/she likes, but if most of the good spots are already occupied it won't do them much good.

	04-08-2004 18:51									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Chaos Theory +2 Police is very nice, since with the Ascetic Virtues it's the magical +3. Garrisons are also important in cities to help with random IoD attacks. Might as well make them control drones, too. +1 Probe is a bonus, if not terribly useful. -3 hab limits is a nasty penalty by the time you get to size 11. On the other hand, it'll take you longer without proper pop booming. Aversion Free Market hurts, but not that much, since sea tiles produce fantastic amounts of energy anyway, once restrictions are lifted. You can run Planned anyway, for a while. Deep Pressure Hull for free won't do much in most games, as that comes so late. Hidden bases are interesting, but does that really work? I'd think the name and size would be visible regardless of the base graphics. IMO, the good spots are ones that are nearby. All sea shelf can make plenty of nutrients and energy. You aren't going to spread so much as to choke off the seas, on a reasonable map.

-3 Hab limits is mostly offset IF the player can get a hold on Ascetic Virtues. You already see part of the tech strategy for this faction.
And just wait untill the +1 probe foils come invading a landlubber base with their 'normal' probe ratings, even if defended. It's the start of having a +3 probe with Covert Ops, thus the rollover bug won't happen as well.
The free ability, well, the faction was more or less meant for a alphax.txt file in which this ability resides under Silksteel alloys. Much sooner thus.
For the 'choking', it's better done when at least two seafactions exists in a game (the other one off course the Pirates).
And for the 'hidden bases'. Watch the screenie. The -3 hab limit is a bit calculated as well to provide (more or less) invisible bases when they're smaller, the faction color blends in perfectly within shelf squares as well. And if the other players can be persuaded to put off the base grid (the red lines) some of them are bound to stumble over your bases without knowing...

	04-08-2004 21:53									#53
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat Haven't tried Drones seriously, but since they tend to be easy enemies i doubt them.

Morgan is probably the easiest enemy of the original factions when played by the AI....but put Morgan in a skilled player's hand and you have a juggernaut disproportionably powerful to all but a few other factions in the game. Think Morgan is a push-over? Do some searches for old Morgan posts, there is plenty to change your mind. Same goes for Drones. I dare say that the Drones are the single most powerful faction, with the very arguable exception of the Morgans or the University....actually the Hive is way up there too, but that is neither here nor there. I used to be a big Aki fan too, running 100% labs with a 20% bonus is very attractive. But a +2 to industry plus one less drone in transcend is a bigger winner in my book.

	04-08-2004 22:18									#54
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I still don't get it though; to me, the Free Drone's hated social engineering choice should be free market, not green economics.

And yes, Morgan is a juggernaut in the right hands. With cloning vats, ascetic virtues, and various other things...its actually quite practical to do democracy+green+wealth, and watch your energy skyrocket....

However, Svens or Roze would have to take my vote. With Nethack terminus, oh my, what a lot of damage one can do! Svens is pretty flexible, as well, except on 30-50% land maps, of course.

	04-08-2004 23:47									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Nabvrimn CyCon results from an appaling logic error: it is impossible for a sentient algorith to jump to humand before MMI, which is decades into the game.

If you arrive at a paradox, it is likely because you are using the wrong paradigm. You are mixing background story and game mechanics. Story wise, all the xpack factions come much later in the timeline than Planetfall, but what were the designers supposed to do, set all the xpack factions to start the game at 2250? Imagine making planetfall next to Miriam who has Chaos Needlejets to your scouts. Yes there are going to be logic gaps, but great gameplay can not afford to be trumped by storyline.

quote: Originally posted by Nabvrimn The Angels would not be a viable faction in RL or realistic fiction. They would collapse under their own weight like the puritans would have without native help.

While this is basically true, it is no more or less logical than the Univ, Morgan, and Gaian factions are. The only factions that make any modern political sense are PKs (prosperity based democracy), Hive (socialist military state), Believers (fundamentalist theocracy), and Spartans (military dictatorship). All the rest of the factions would actually just be little more than special interest groups in one of those political factions. Thank the Cosmic Muffin that we are playing a game which we can enjoy without all this minutia.

quote: Originally posted by Nabvrimn The Cult is another impossible faction. The leader is supposed to have been found in the fungus as a child, but he is leading them at planetfall. Ooops.

I believe some one may have already pointed this out but the Cult (when under AI control) doesn't appear until six years after all the other factions start. Ever notice how the Cult always ends up on crappy little islands? That is because all the other plots of land have already been used up by the time they start (this is especially true on tiny maps).

quote: Originally posted by Nabvrimn The aliens are both gravely flawed in terms of balance.

Don't mean to be rude, but ...duh... that is the whole plot point in SMAX. Two alien powers are slugging it out and you're in the middle. You have to choose a side to survive until you are strong enough to cast off your yoke.

	05-08-2004 00:01									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Natalinasmpf I still don't get it though; to me, the Free Drone's hated social engineering choice should be free market, not green economics.

I believe the idea is that industry is the antitheses to environmentalism

quote: Originally posted by Natalinasmpf However, Svens or Roze would have to take my vote. With Nethack terminus, oh my, what a lot of damage one can do! Svens is pretty flexible, as well, except on 30-50% land maps, of course.

Please prove me wrong on this one, cause I wish I was, but....Gak! The Nethack Terminus is got to be one of the more worthless SPs in the game. First off the game likely was decided long ago making it moot. Secondly, it is only really only useful against a +3 probe/HSA enemies. Blah! terrible SP. The Drones +2 industry pays for the Algorithmic Enhancement added to any Drone probe team.

	05-08-2004 01:34									#57
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The Nethack Terminus would be nice if it didn't come so late there's nothing to probe anymore (except maybe to sabotage the AtT ).

	05-08-2004 13:10									#58
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quote: The Angels would not be a viable faction in RL or realistic fiction. They would collapse under their own weight like the puritans would have without native help.

Think the GNU/Linux and their respective hacker community hundreds of years into the future.

Certainly sustainable.

	05-08-2004 13:14									#59
	Increase Your PM Length

What about mind controlling bases for (almost?) free? :

quote: Please prove me wrong on this one, cause I wish I was, but....Gak! The Nethack Terminus is got to be one of the more worthless SPs in the game. First off the game likely was decided long ago making it moot.

Not necessarily. Right now I'm playing Roze, and me and Deidre are neck to neck at...*gasp* MY. 2459. Transcend level. I have Nethack, of course.

And Deidre is ahead in Ascent to Transcendence by four mineral round turns.

quote: Secondly, it is only really only useful against a +3 probe/HSA enemies.

EC cost for actions?

	05-08-2004 16:36									#60
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Since we are having so much fun at the storyline's expense, not the refrences a very hostile atmosphere "...while a gasping death for most humans..." and yet Chow Down is found in the fungus.