28-07-2004 20:01									#91
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It's not a matter of doing something illegal, it's to do with treating suspects/victims etc. differently because of their race.

	28-07-2004 20:05									#92
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quote: And with something as esoteric as racism how can you tell if it's affecting their job or not?

Like DD, what about avowed Communists. How you can you tell with something as esoteric as class if it is affecting their job or not?

	28-07-2004 20:08									#93
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Are you using the example of US anti-Communist purges to support my argument or arguing with me?

	28-07-2004 20:11									#94
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I'm arguing with you. I don't think anti-Communist purges were the correct course of action (unless there was knowlege that they were, in fact, spies); do you?

	28-07-2004 20:14									#95
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No, but I thought the point was that 'this kind of thing couldn't happen in the US 'cause they have a bill of rights'.

	28-07-2004 20:17									#96
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And you see what happens when in the past we decided to ignore that document. We realize it now and the Supreme Court ain't going to let it happen again.

	28-07-2004 20:23									#97
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So, you'd have to allow someone who was openly part of a radical muslim group with sympathies similar to Al Qaeda into, say, the New York Police department, if they met all other criteria, and not do anything about them until they actually shot some of their colleagues who were trying to prevent some kind of terrorist emergency?

Isn't that a bit stupid?

We have to let these BNP idiots join the police and keep an eye on them until they incite a massive inner city race riot and then throw them out?

	28-07-2004 20:42									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor to the UK police. An employee should never be fired for their political beliefs. However, they could be fired if their political action interferes with their mission.

Exactly my thoughts. Only if they actually violate the law or policy they disagree with should they be fired.

	28-07-2004 20:44									#99
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH Why should people be allowed to be in antisocial, violent racist organisations that promote civil disorder and rioting?

You're right. The Communist Party should be banned.

	28-07-2004 20:46									#100
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Funny, because in China the Communist party is totally against civil disobedience and rioting. Must just be wherever you live.

	28-07-2004 21:21									#101
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"We have to let these BNP idiots join the police and keep an eye on them until they incite a massive inner city race riot and then throw them out?"

The BNP can do this all on their own?

	28-07-2004 21:24									#102
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Yeh, but you have to demonstrate that you can't treat people fairly within the law before being fired. You're taking a mental shortcut that is ugly from a freedom of association standpoint.

Not true. For many positions in the government, esp. those related to security or intelligence, there are long standing rules wrt to the types of persons that can be hired so as to avoid breaches and leaks.

For example, the CIA would vet the background of applicants.

	28-07-2004 21:28									#103
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Right. I forgot. In Park Avenue's 'fair' world our racial minorities should be expected to allow themselves to be taunted with racial abuse by BNP marches through their streets, be beaten, have their windows broken, faeces put through their letter boxes etc. etc. and do nothing about it other than report the crimes to the Police. And the fact that the policeman they are reporting to is a paid up BNP member shouldn't affect their confidence that their complaint will be taken seriously at all.

I'm glad I don't live in your world.

	28-07-2004 21:33									#104
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc How can you allow admitted commies, Republicans, Labour/Tory members?

Communists weren't allowed into MI5. That much I know.

	28-07-2004 21:35									#105
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There's a slight difference when irreperable harm will ensue from the first violation of the rules... like in the intelligence business.

	28-07-2004 21:35									#106
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH Right. I forgot. In Park Avenue's 'fair' world our racial minorities should be expected to allow themselves to be taunted with racial abuse by BNP marches through their streets, be beaten, have their windows broken, faeces put through their letter boxes etc. etc. and do nothing about it other than report the crimes to the Police. And the fact that the policeman they are reporting to is a paid up BNP member shouldn't affect their confidence that their complaint will be taken seriously at all. I'm glad I don't live in your world.

The BNP are a legitimate political party and their politics does not involve racism.

What their members do is their business.

Or are we to hold the Lib Dem party guilty for all Lib Dem members/activists misdeameanours?
...to hold the Labour party guilty for all Labour members/activists misdeameanours?
...to hold the Tory party guilty for all Tory members/activists misdeameanours?

	28-07-2004 21:36									#107
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I think the same thing goes for the police.

	28-07-2004 21:52									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue The BNP are a legitimate political party and their politics does not involve racism.

Yet theit site patiently explains that non-whites aren't welcome in their party, and their policies include the following....

"...the immediate deportation of criminal and illegal immigrants".

A division between "criminal" and "illegal" immigrants? A dangerously loose line.

	28-07-2004 21:53									#109
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Having a Chief Constable announce that he's a BNP member would be catastrophic for the police. From their point of view, it's a pragmatic step.

	28-07-2004 23:05									#110
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I am ambivalent towards this measure. I do not think that it is reasonable to ban someone from a job on the basis of opinion where there is no direct evidence that that view prevents them from doing said job. Having said that, I do not consider the BNP a legitimate political party nor their aired opinions to be socially constructive, reasonable, sensible, well thought out or particularly intelligent, and don't even get me started on either their policies or membership! . If there ever was due cause for censorship or acts of this nature, the BNP are top of the list. However one weighs up pragmatics vs liberty here.

The solution to that in my view can be found in the nature of employer/employee relations. It is fundamentally a market. An employer (like the police force) will choose an employee on the basis of their ability to do the job. The employee has no automatic right to the job, just as a banana has no automatic right to be bought in tescos. I will choose a fruit that fits my taste.

If the police consider that a particular group of characteristics, for example, a certain view, runs contrary to what they are trying to do in the police, then they are perfectly entitled to kick out that person. That is why I do not like positive or negative discrimination in the purely economic sense. This does not amount to censorship, because people are still legally allowed to echo the BNP's views. In society, in life, every action has consequences. I cannot possibly expect my life to become any easier if I start wearing a t-shirt saying "God hates fags" or "Yay 9-11", and the same thing goes for the BNP. There is nothing undemocratic or authoritarian about the measures undertaken, but I would like them to be more specific about the BNP's policies. The police are in no danger of an own-goal there.

	29-07-2004 00:08									#111
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quote: The solution to that in my view can be found in the nature of employer/employee relations. It is fundamentally a market. An employer (like the police force) will choose an employee on the basis of their ability to do the job. The employee has no automatic right to the job, just as a banana has no automatic right to be bought in tescos. I will choose a fruit that fits my taste.

The difference being that the employer is the State, not a private individual - is it really OK for the State to discriminate based on ideology? (Unless, of course, simply holding the ideology itself is an impediment to performance of the job.)

	29-07-2004 00:13									#112
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I don't think theres a difference where the state requires someone to do the job. Provided the state does not outlaw people's support of the BNP they can employ as they wish like a normal employer. If we say that the civil right of free speech is not an active position by the state, rather it simply withdraws legistlature from people's opinions, which is effectively what it is. Are we to say that to enter in any civil service job requires nothing more than one to be law-abiding? That wouldn't work in my opinion, each job requires certain characteristics and that does not change if the employer is the state.

Furthermore, if that were not the case, where would it stop? The lowliest council job? The top civil servant or police officer?

	29-07-2004 00:14									#113
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Oops didnt read the rest..

quote: (Unless, of course, simply holding the ideology itself is an impediment to performance of the job.)

Precisely!!

The police need to show that is the case with the BNP, but I think they can make a very strong argument to that effect in my opinion.

	29-07-2004 00:17									#114
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No - simply holding an ideology does not compromise your abilities as a police officer.

In something like intelligence, where ideology has a very real effect on loyalty, it does (one of the abilities being trustworthiness).

	29-07-2004 00:17									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue The BNP are a legitimate political party and their politics does not involve racism. What their members do is their business.

Ladies and gentlemen, please fasten your seatbelts, we are entering Wonderland, your trip up denial will begin shortly.

	29-07-2004 00:21									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker No - simply holding an ideology does not compromise your abilities as a police officer.

One of the key abilities of a policeman is to retain the confidence and trust of as much of the general public as is reasonably possible. That becomes tricky if you're a member of a party run by criminals/terrorists, don't you think?

	29-07-2004 00:22									#117
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quote: No - simply holding an ideology does not compromise your abilities as a police officer.

Hypothetically you are a senior officer looking at recruits. You have a large Jewish community under your juristiction. You have someone of liberal politic, and a Nazi. Which is most appropriate for dealing with that community?

Your argument would be absolutely fine and I would be the first to concur if we looked at human nature and saw that ideology remains solely in the mind and intellect. The trouble is that such concepts are not a matter of high-level intellectual masturbation, people actually believe them and allow them to affect their actions, especially when they are in a position of power to impliment them. It's not solely a question of ideology, it becomes a question of personality and behaviour too, which as far as the police are concerned, is a question of common sense, on which they are perfectly free to recruit on the basis of whose influence.

	29-07-2004 00:24									#118
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@ MB

	29-07-2004 00:40									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Hypothetically you are a senior officer looking at recruits. You have a large Jewish community under your juristiction. You have someone of liberal politic, and a Nazi. Which is most appropriate for dealing with that community?

Depends on how they act.

	29-07-2004 00:47									#120
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So it's a question of risk. I, as a hypothetical senior police officer, would not let a Nazi working for me anywhere near a Jewish community.

In a country where hundreds of thousands are Muslim, I think that excluding BNP members was a sensible decision.