28-07-2004 04:41									#1
	Cruise Missiles Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I'm quite disappointed in the lack of manueverability of Cruise Missiles in Vanilla Civ III. They cannot be loaded onto Transports, or any other naval vessel. They cannot be airlifted. And their attack range is only 2.

What a crock!

In real life, cruise missiles can be loaded onto Cruisers, Destroyers, Carriers, Subs, and are small and can be airlifted anywhere. Their range is hundreds of miles (4 or more Civ3 squares by my estimate).

In my current game, I have an entire continent to myself. What the hell am I going to do with all my Cruise Missiles now?

Oh, and Nuclear submarines should be allowed to carry more than one Nuke! In real life, they can carry something like 16 Titan ICBMs that can hit almost anywhere on the globe!!

Grr.

I just want to nuke the **** out of the planet on the cheap, but I have to build way too many subs!

	28-07-2004 05:11									#2
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well, assuming they have deadly bombard, you could kill weakened naval vessels or any attacking land units... so, in other words not much

	28-07-2004 05:11									#3
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This not real life, they have to do some things to try to keep the game in balance. Cruise missiles can be shuttles anywhere on the map in rails with no lost of movement points.

Anyway who even needs them?

	28-07-2004 05:37									#4
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yeah, if this game were to mimic real life, spearman would not be able to defeat tanks

	28-07-2004 08:05									#5
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Well, I just used over 100 cruise missiles in my latest game to wipe out the Dutch. Playing using Conquests though, so they have 4 range. I used them in combination with bombers to take 5 cities on the first turn of the war with no casualties. And i've taken 2 other cities since with my core cities pumping out 9 more cruise missiles per turn. They're half the price of Radar Artillery or Bombers while being just as effective(at least for that bombard).

Their main use seems to be if you don't have a navy, or want to wage a fast war. With them being able to use the rails you can quickly get them to a position to attack the enemy after you've driven into his land. And since its one use, you don't have to worry about guarding them once they fire. So they have a use, just not a very big one.

	28-07-2004 08:15									#6
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100 MA could take out 5 cities and still be around to take out a few more each turn.

	28-07-2004 09:38									#7
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100 MA=200 Cruise Missiles though. The cities i'm taking are size 12+ ones and are defended by MI. Meaning i'd probably take heavy losses capturing the cities. Now with my industrial output I could makeup for the losses, but its really a waste of units when I can do the same with bombers/cruise missiles. Its also alot easier to take out radar towers using cruise missiles, rather then having to drive after some fortified MI with your MA.

In a long drawn out war against a larger enemy i'd probably want more MA rather then the cruise missiles. But for waging a quick war in the modern era CM do the job nicely. Can annex a weaker neighbor quickly with no fuss or weakening my offensive army greatly.

	28-07-2004 10:03									#8
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Cruise missiles are great for keeping down WW. Where those 100 MA are going to lose a few units, adding to WW points, the CM allows you to wipe out defenders without any risk to your own troops. Basically a one shot stealth bomber that can never be intercepted, never hits an improvement and never lowers population, for 60 shields. Also, if handled properly, they never cost upkeep, even in democracy.

	28-07-2004 10:45									#9
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Alright 50MA and I am not worried about WW.

	28-07-2004 12:45									#10
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I used cruise missiles quite successfully in a very interesting PBEM (DON aka The Doughnut Game). Their key "feature" is their low cost. In a modern war, you are going to have a bunch of secondary level cities ~30spt unable to crank out MAs or MIs fast enough (the whole war takes under 10-15t), but can contribute a cruise missile every other turn, or even every turn.

I agree that against AI, they may not look attractive or useful. But against a skilled human, in a desperate war where every single turn matters, they are a unit as fine and useful as any other - under the right circumstances.

	28-07-2004 17:34									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Solomwi Also, if handled properly, they never cost upkeep, even in democracy.

How is that? Although I rarely use democracy, I thought it provided no unit support at all.

	28-07-2004 20:16									#12
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I does provide no unit support. The best way to use cruise missiles is to build them the same turn you fire them. IIRC, unit support is deducted from the treasury at the beginning of the production phase, meaning that new units don't cost upkeep until the first turn you can move them. Remember also that the production phase happens after the movement phase. To give an example:

Movement, 1950: 1 turn left on CM, upkeep at 100 g, no other new units being built (for simplicity's sake).
Production, 1950: 100 g deducted from treasury (almost unnoticed, since it also does the other empire wide financial dealings).

Movement, 1951: Unit support now at 101 g. You fire the cruise missile, and unit support is back down to 100 g before it's deducted again.

The key is simply never having a CM in your arsenal while in the production phase. This works for 1 or 100 of them.

vmxa: I know you aren't worried about WW, but some are. I'm not portraying the CM as a one size fits all solution, at least not meaning to, but pointing out that there are benefits and times when it is the best solution.

	28-07-2004 21:11									#13
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Yes most of the tools have a use, just some are more useful than others.

	28-07-2004 21:39									#14
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Back to diablovision's original question...

Position a transport in a coastal tile and manually load up your CMs by just moving them to the transport. Or, you could play C3C, where they were fixed, and can now be loaded into transports, but not airlifted, and have a four tile range.

	28-07-2004 22:56									#15
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Hey thanks Solomwi! I didn't know that you could load cruise missiles onto transports on the coast. Now I can actually use the ones left over from taking over my continent!

	29-07-2004 01:30									#16
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Too bad cruise missiles can't be launched directly from ships. That's how they're typically used nowadays.

Cruise missiles should really be air units and have an operational range, instead of ground units with bombard. That way they could be rebased without all the fuss of loading them on and off transports. That's a lot of nuisance for a one-time use unit.

	29-07-2004 04:31									#17
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I use cruise missiles on a limited scale, mostly to take out fortified units on mountaintops (like the ones guarding radar towers).

occasionally I will build enough cm's to actually use them en masse to destroy enemy fleets, or soften up cities...but in most games, just about 10-20 cm's used to get radar towers is about it.

On higher diff levels, I find myself building them less and less though...

	29-07-2004 08:58									#18
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I have a question, I thought of tagging cruise missiles as tactical nukes so nuclear subs (and anything else that is modded to carry them) can carry them, but I'm not sure that since its tagged as a tactical nuke, would that make everyone declare war on you as if it were a nuke or actually turn it into a nuke or what? (didnt wanna waste whole game to find out)

	29-07-2004 18:58									#19
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Solomwi Cruise missiles are great for keeping down WW. Where those 100 MA are going to lose a few units, adding to WW points, the CM allows you to wipe out defenders without any risk to your own troops. Basically a one shot stealth bomber that can never be intercepted, never hits an improvement and never lowers population, for 60 shields. Also, if handled properly, they never cost upkeep, even in democracy.

wow, maybe I'll try these next game. very useful in democracy I'd imagine.

	29-07-2004 19:00									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Solomwi I does provide no unit support. The best way to use cruise missiles is to build them the same turn you fire them. IIRC, unit support is deducted from the treasury at the beginning of the production phase, meaning that new units don't cost upkeep until the first turn you can move them. Remember also that the production phase happens after the movement phase. To give an example: Movement, 1950: 1 turn left on CM, upkeep at 100 g, no other new units being built (for simplicity's sake). Production, 1950: 100 g deducted from treasury (almost unnoticed, since it also does the other empire wide financial dealings). Movement, 1951: Unit support now at 101 g. You fire the cruise missile, and unit support is back down to 100 g before it's deducted again. The key is simply never having a CM in your arsenal while in the production phase. This works for 1 or 100 of them. vmxa: I know you aren't worried about WW, but some are. I'm not portraying the CM as a one size fits all solution, at least not meaning to, but pointing out that there are benefits and times when it is the best solution.

the problem with this strategy is you wouldn't be able to wage quick wars. As you couldn't build up a sizable cruise missile inventory and avoid upkeep.

	29-07-2004 20:19									#21
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That all depends on map size. I play huge, and by the modern ages, will have anywhere from 20-40 cities between 60 and 99 shields, and another 50 or so producing 30-59. This means, on average, anywhere from 45-65 CMs a turn, if I were to truly dedicate to it. Depending on the type of war I'm waging, this may or may not be plenty. The best use I've found is to supplement bombers with CM and artillery. Basicly, I'll run my RA, especially, up to the border and try to knock off as many hp as possible until they're exhausted. Then I finish off as many units as I can with CM. A 4 tile range, with AI city spacing, isn't going to let you get to the second level of cities, so your targets are pretty limited already. Five AI cities on the border, each housing four redlined defenders, post artillery barrage, means you really only need 25-30 CMs that turn plus whatever can be used on invading AI units and radar towers. You won't wipe out your enemy in two turns using only non-upkeep CMs, but isn't that the tradeoff that makes the game fun?

For clarification, when I said handled properly above, I meant properly with respect to upkeep, not to imply that building and using the same turn is the only proper way to use them.

Admittedly, the no upkeep scenario is only an ideal situation, but depending on empire size and, more importantly, the role you have in mind for them, it's attainable.

	30-07-2004 12:02									#22
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My problem with this is my ego. I like to have my huge fleet of stealth bombers and artillary, making and losing the cruise missiles means I don't get a huge army to feed my bloated head (oh, come on, everyone knows that a democracy in this game is still a despotism with increased revenue).

	30-07-2004 16:09									#23
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You can load them into ships - just park the ship next to the coast, and move the CM into.

(Assuming they've not closed this loophole since last I checked.)

	30-07-2004 20:01									#24
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I believe you can fire them from AEGIS Cruisers and Nuclear Subs.

However for some dumb reason you cant load them into transports.

	01-08-2004 15:48									#25
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quote: Originally posted by spy14 I believe you can fire them from AEGIS Cruisers and Nuclear Subs.

Not unless you mod the game.

	01-08-2004 16:46									#26
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I always have my settings allowing them to be carried by transports. This way I cant fire at sea but I can land them as an aid to any invasion force.

The trouble is I dont then put this into practice, as the AI cant seem to take advantage of the settings

	02-08-2004 07:06									#27
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quote: Originally posted by spy14 The trouble is I dont then put this into practice, as the AI cant seem to take advantage of the settings

If that's the way you feel about it, than why are you even using artillery?

After almost 3 years of seeing AI ineptness at artillery usage, I have DELETED all ground artillery units, replaced by "siege" and "assault" units:

Take an offensive foot unit, add the cost of 4 contemporary bombard units, give it the attack strength of DOUBLE of its attack or defense strength (whichever is higher). No blitz, no offensive bombard, but defensive bombard of the artillery. Use the graphic of a multi-unit (available at CFC).

The AI will be quite happy to build and use these. I have even seen an AI Army* containing 4 Mech Assault Infantry (ADM=36.16(12).2).

* C3C, where an Army is created every X turns by Military Academy, with reduced Army shield value

	02-08-2004 19:12									#28
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I lack the inclination to do all that. I used to make great use of bombers in PTW when the AI used them properly... in C3C they just seem to attack cities and not improvements.

	08-08-2004 00:32									#29
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if you tag cruise missiles as tactical nukes (so you can load them onto nuclear subs), will the AI get pissed at you for using the cruise missiles as if they're nukes?

	08-08-2004 00:37									#30
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Presumably as you've effectivly turned the flag on to activate that response. Try it and see