29-07-2004 18:47									#1
	Second Place and Half a World Away Tired of ads?

I play on Monarch level, mostly on large or huge maps with lots of civs.

In each game, somewhere around 1400AD I "discover" the rest of the world and also discover that I am in 2nd or 3rd place. The leading civ is always on the other side of the world so I would like to ask some of you what is the best approach when you are in second place and half a world away.

In the last game I finished Babylonia and the Hittites were on the other main continent #1 and 2 respectively. I was in third place. The Babs were tech advanced but the Hittites were way behind, providing an easy target for the Babs when they decide to go after them. I was on tech par with the Babs and had two civs for neighbors. the Egyptians and Greeks. I played the Sumerians.
I gobbled up Egypt which put me in 2nd but Babs still had a 900 pt. lead on me. They were busy chewing up the Romans simultaneously.(1500AD)

I went for the "Weak Sister" gambit because I thought that taking on the Babs directly across the ocean would be very tough to do because they were so powerful and sustaining forces overseas is a real challenge. So I went after 2 weaker civs on other islands but the Babs just chewed up a few Hittites cities to keep pace. Luckily for them the Hittites were neighbors and no sea transport occurred.
So after that conquest I was still 900 points behind (1700AD).

Its time for nukes. I started buliding nuke subs in every coastal city and Tac or ICBMs nukes in each interior city. I planned to position subs around the Babs coast and planned a simultaneous launch of all nukes somewhere aroud 1950AD. I never got that far because the Babs built the last Wonder and won on points. I disabled that one!

What would be your approach in a situation like this?

	29-07-2004 19:13									#2
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Allot depends. I take it you're talking score for being "ahead"? Don't pay too much attention to score. It's rarely an accurate depiction of who is truly ahead.

I would have secured my own land first. You said you had two neighbors? Take them both out. Or at least kick them onto reservation islands.

It might have been a good idea to strenghten the Hittites tech wise so that they arent/werent such pushovers.

When invading, all you need is a single city to begin with. Get that city, get an airport up, and you have insta-mass troop moving with airports on your mainland. So, if they are at war, either join one side or another with enough troops to take and hold the city then make peace ASAP or even settle your own and not declare war in one of the holes. If they are not at war, MAKE them at war. Sign an alliance. Striking Babylon is better than striking the Hittites. So, if you must, take a Hittite city near Babylon.

Once you have that foothold, game's over. Build up and ship those troops over and go bonk some heads.

	29-07-2004 19:35									#3
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You don't need nukes, you need marines. If your description of Babylon is accurate, any stack you land will take heavy, heavy casualties before getting to attack. Pick either a smaller city or a resource/lux city and load up a couple of transports of marines (you want to be DAMN sure you have enough to take the city), followed by wave after wave of defenders and fastmovers. If you have the Mil. Academy up and running, dedicate your next army or two for marines only. 4xMarine armies are the most glorious unit in the game.

	29-07-2004 19:48									#4
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quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx I would have secured my own land first. You said you had two neighbors? Take them both out. Or at least kick them onto reservation islands.

I did take the Egyptians out but the Greeks were great allies and usually followed me wherever I went. I guess I did not have a reason to mash them.

quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx It might have been a good idea to strenghten the Hittites tech wise so that they arent/werent such pushovers.

I did that too once the Babs started going after them. Its the only thing that stopped their elimination.

Not sure what you mean with insta mass troop moving with airports. I thought you had to ship them over on boats. I think I am about to learn something new but is there air transport available besides helicopters?

I guess my biggest concern is that they would be able to put more troops in theatre than I could ship over on boats thus making it a lost cause. I will have to try it next time though.
Your point though is to go after the #1 civ and not take out the weak sisters in an attempt to catch them indirectly?

	29-07-2004 19:51									#5
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If you have an airport in your foothold city, and airports in your homeland cities, you can airlift one unit into the foothold for every homeland airport you have.

Taking out the weak sisters can be the only way to go, if #1 is just too powerful for you to take on right now. Anytime it's possible, though, taking down #1 directly is going to be better, for obvious reasons.

	29-07-2004 19:52									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Solomwi followed by wave after wave of defenders and fastmovers.

Here is where I thought I would lose the production battle because they are local and I have to ship those waves of defenders across the ocean. Maybe I am giving the AI too much credit.

quote: Originally posted by Solomwi If you have the Mil. Academy up and running, dedicate your next army or two for marines only. 4xMarine armies are the most glorious unit in the game.

I have never had a Marine Army but that would be one heck of an amphib force.

	29-07-2004 20:19									#7
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mkquest, PM me your email address and I will shoot you a Word doc of my DARs (the last is only partially complete) for AU 503... I had to deal with exactly the situation you describe, and it'll be easier to read it all in one go rather than cut up in the different threads in the AU forum.

	29-07-2004 20:28									#8
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Marines in armies are not amphibious. Keep that in mind.
(See Theseus' sig...)

quote: I guess I did not have a reason to mash them.

Sure you did. They are there.

If it helps...think of it as joining forces for the greater good. (FORCED joining, sure...)

quote: I did that too once the Babs started going after them. Its the only thing that stopped their elimination

That was probably too little too late. If they were roughly equal size, but the Hittites were tech backwards, it may have been a good idea to catch them up beforehand. You can do it in ways to ensure your tech superiority such as betting GPT for the last few techs...

Airports are the key to overseas invasion.

Get your city on the other continent an airport, get all your cities on the home continent airports. Once a unit is in a city with an airport, a new icon/option pops up to airlift.

Each airport can only airlift one unit per turn, but they can receive as many as you can send. Hence, mass transport of units to the new continent, and there goes that production battle you thought you'ld lose due to logistics.

As for Marines... I'm not sold on their use vs AI. There's got to be a nice mountain/hill right next to a city where you can land a nice SOD and mock the AI as they attempt to attack it (more often avoiding it)

	29-07-2004 20:40									#9
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I forgot Armies are not amphibious. Duh!
Airports are, indeed the secret to overseas conquests. I wish I would have noticed that capability earlier.

But thats what this forum is for.

It definitely changes the way I will play. Does the AI ever do this? I have never noticed it before.

Thanks as always.

	29-07-2004 20:42									#10
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Since Marines don't form armies, they form MAUs. (Marine Amphib Units). Maybe a suggestion for Civ4. MAU with capacity of 2, 3 with Mil Academy?

Also MEUs, though don't ask me the difference...one with boats and one without?

	29-07-2004 20:48									#11
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

UnO, marines in armies with only other marines ARE amphibious. Marines in armies with Berserks are not, which is what Theseus' oft misunderstood sig is about. Trust me on this one, I typically have as many 4xMar armies as 4xMA at the end of the game.

	29-07-2004 21:11									#12
	Put an end to popups!

In a large or huge map at Monarch you do not even have to take down the other distant civs to win. Just take you contient over and out produce them.

If you want to take them down a peg, go ahead. Like UnO said you may wish to prop up the weak sister that Hammy is beating on with tech and maybe even gold or resources.

You do not have to wait for airports to hurt Hammy. If you can muster up 3 armies and a stack up arties and troops, just invade.
Find a hill next to a target city (no need for marines). Drop the bunch down on it and hit them the next turn. The AI will usually leave the stack alone if it has armies in it and is in the open.

Take down the city, you can either capture or raze it and found your own, your choice. The AI will attack a city with armies, so let them toss lots of units to their death. Now you can either go pillage or continue to conquer, depending on the strength of the AI. I have used this tactic against AI's with as many as 1100 units. Do not wait until they have flight.

BTW if I plan this strat I will try to get one or more armies of defenders. If middle ages, it will be muskets, if industrial probaly rifles and so on.

By the way if you did not find them by 1400AD, you should prioritize you exploration. Get more ships out and sooner, if needed. At Monarch you should have found some civs that you could trade and get their maps and contacts, if all else fails.

	30-07-2004 12:14									#13
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1100 units? how is your load time?

	30-07-2004 20:07									#14
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Great advice. Thanks everyone.

	30-07-2004 20:20									#15
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quote: Originally posted by bobbo008 1100 units? how is your load time?

No problems on 3gh system. Oh and a 10,000 RPM Raptor drive.

	30-07-2004 20:52									#16
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Yes, Marine Armies (and Berserk Armies) are indeed amphib, and as has been said, a glorious thing to behold.

For any doubters, download my submission for the AU 503 HoF. It's the last turn, and you can try a 4xMAU for yourself (mkquest is quite right that that is the correct designation... a Marine ARMY, sheesh, what was I thinking ).

Mix them in the same Army though, and you have a dud. Still p*sses me off something fierce.

	01-08-2004 17:27									#17
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As vmxa1 said, on Monarch level you can get ahead of the other continent just by taking over your own, so there are probably early-game techniques you could develop.

Making earlier contact was mentioned, and this applies to your home continent first (warriors / scouts / curraghs), then securing naval techs then exploring quickly to find the other civs. I assume your playing C3C, where contact trading comes much later in the game and exploration is more important.

Contact means tech trade opportunities and reduced costs for techs already discovered by the others you know.

In your cities, maximise your pop working on improved tiles - work those roads for your own research and/or beat techs out of the opposition.

Economic success is all about growth + worked tiles. Use the lux slider when you can't hook up enough lux.

Finally, if taking on a strong Babs overseas, I wouldn't want to try and hold onto any core cities - certain Flipsville. Bring settlers.