30-07-2004 00:18									#1
	2121 End turn + 2122 discussion Support Apolyton

Scout movement first. Attempted to move into fungus to meet Yang. Encountered a mind worm! Odds of attacking were 3:2, although it was tempting to move away and let yang be attacked. Was successful in attacking, gained promotion to commando, but was 60% damaged.

Former road to command cancelled at MorVul. I suggest we let it defend the base and don't switch production. It will defend at 2.1875 against the mind worm attacking at ~1.125. Odds of more or less 2:1. Worth the risk considering the massive loss we could have.

Forest at MorInd finished. The increased energy gave me an idea, and so I started fiddling with the sliders. At 20/0/80 we get IndAuto in 2 turns not 3. Strongly suggest we do that

Road begun SW of MorInd.

Spent 52 e.c. to completely rush the Defense Attorney. Although we could have spend 44ec to complete it this turn with no min carry over, rushing completely cheapens the rush of the CP in 7 turns when the base has grown. As the ecs are just sitting around otherwise, I'd sooner spend them.

A few projections:

MorMet will cost us 22e.c. to rush fully or 12 e.c. to rush to completion + mins in 4 turns.
In two turns MorInd will be at 10 mins, at the same time as we get indAuto. Yay! Rush as soon as feasable knowing we need to rush CPs too.
MorVul won't need to be rushed very much, if at all. It may cost a few ec, but certainly no more than 10.
RFR will accumulate 16 mins before it needs to be rushed, 37ec cost IIRC.

The Angels are pop 5. Everyone else is pop 4.

Nothing new on the map, so no images this turn.

The only things left uncompleted this turn are the former in MorVul has not yet moved. I suggest it does not and defends by itself.

There is also the question of whether to switch production at MorVul to a more offensive unit. I say we don't and instead allow the former to defend. We have good odds, although the risks are quite high.

Attachment: acdg3-morgan-2121_endturn.zip
This has been downloaded 2 time(s).

	30-07-2004 00:38									#2
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do we have contact with yang?

	30-07-2004 00:39									#3
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good move attacking by the way, the worm would have likely attacked us and we might have lost the scout.

	30-07-2004 01:31									#4
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no we donīt have contact, as Chaunk said he wasnīt able to enter the fungus thus he couldnīt contact Yang.

	30-07-2004 02:54									#5
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If people could give their opinion on wether MorVul needs to have production switched then that'd be helpful. Currently it is making a CP and is 13 or 14 mins into the build. Switching to a synth sentinel (Our best choice IMHO) would lose us 13 mins over all, as well as a small number of e.c.s (13 or 16) to rush the unit.

I'll finish the turn tomorrow morning ~ 12 hours time.

	30-07-2004 02:57									#6
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its a tough call,the former might defend, but i've seen em lose before. since we haven't switched to wealth yet I'd have to say let the former defend.

	30-07-2004 09:03									#7
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I think the MorMet estimations are about 6 ec's too high, because they don't take into account the pending +1 industry, saving us 3 minerals.

Since we don't plan on building anything in two turns, the early IA only gains four energy (one at each base for one turn only) but loses five/turn for two turns to inefficiency. I don't recommend it.

Obviously the former has to stay. The question is whether we want to assume it will win vs. the worm. It's tempting to build a scout or probe to go see why that worm come from the south. How do we know this won't happen again when the former is too far away to help? I'm undecided, but leaning toward a scout in MorVul.

Last edited by jtsisyoda on 30-07-2004 at 09:25

	30-07-2004 13:02									#8
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Scout

Hopefully the former will win, though...

	30-07-2004 16:38									#9
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Early IndAuto also saves us 2 mins at MorInd, as well as giving us crawlers earlier. Should we decide to build a scout at MorVul then I'd recommend a crawler at MorVul not a CP, hopefully helping us to the HGP a little earlier. Wealth also drops our rushing costs across the board significantly, completely eliminating them in many places.

Also, switching to wealth gives +2 energy from the base square not +1 energy. Losses then are 10ec, compared to gains of 8ec + 2 mins. Not to mention speeding research and industry.

A synth Sentinel at MorVul would be much better - as we already have over 10 mins accumulated, a synth scout would require rushing for 22ec completely or 15 ec to completion plus mins. It would then recash in for 10 mins not five. However, we lose 2 mins to change production either way, an aditional mineral next turn for support. Mins cost then, is 3 mins, ec cost 15.

However the cost then increases when we produce our next unit. Assuming synth sentinel:
Initial loses 3min + 22 e.c.
We have growth in 5 turns, hence accumulate 13 mins (3 turns at 3 mins, 2 at 2 min). Cashing in the sentinel gives a further 10 mins. The next CP then costs 16 more e.c. to rush to completion (10 e.c. to rush + mins).
Total loses between 38 & 25 ec and 13 mins.

With scout patrol only:
Initial loses 4min but no ec. (We lose extra minerals here due to support costs, changing, and still having more mins in the box than we need)
We have growth in 5 turns, hence accumulate 13 mins (3 turns at 3 mins, 2 at 2 min). Cashing in the scout then gives a further 5 mins. The next CP then costs 31 more e.c. to rush to completion (26 e.c. to rush + mins).
Total loses 26 to 31 ec and 19 mins.

Should the former defend successfully (Highly likely), we lose nothing.

I'd like to hear a few more opinions on whether we should change production or not before finishing the turn. I'm against it as I think the former will defend successfully.

	31-07-2004 01:26									#10
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I am for using the former to defend if the odds are indeed as good as listed. Are you sure the worm will attack at 1.125? I thought attack strength was 3 and then modified. What gives the worm such negative modifiers for attacking?

I would like to wait on getting wealth since it offers little advantage to switch and we have not talked to Yang yet. I don't want us to have IA when we talk to Yang.

I think a more negative planet rating makes it harder to move into fungus.

With the defense team and the scout we should try to 'direct' Yang's explorer outside of our choke point. In the longer term, I think the ind scout could do def duty, and the defense team could guard the south (with a militant Yang), or explore south and go for an infilitration if we can get close to one of Yang's bases.

Last edited by arginine on 31-07-2004 at 01:51

	31-07-2004 04:37									#11
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The worm will attack at such a low factor because it's laval mass (*0.75) and inside the first 50 years attacking a base (*0.5). Thats 3*0.75*0.5 = 1.125. The former will defend at 2*(0.875 for green morale)*(1.25 for inside a base)=2.1875. Slightly under 2:1, but the way that SMAX works out damage, I'll be surprised it it's more than 60% damaged.

Unless the concessus swings another way in the next 10 hours or so, I'll finish and post tomorrow morning. Former will stay put to defend. Production will not be switched. Sliders will be reset to 50/0/50.

	31-07-2004 04:45									#12
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go for faster IndAuto I say, wealth is a great setting.

Oh and I would like to anounce I will be on much more active now, I had some computer trouble for the last week but its all clleared up now.

	31-07-2004 09:55									#13
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Wealth is great, but we will be getting it in only one turn earlier. We will make +8 energy / turn and lose 5 energy/turn from inefficiency. There is no unit which will need to be rushed in 2 turns, that can't wait for 3 turns.

If neither our or Yang's units is able to enter the fungus next turn, then we will have IA when we meet him, and he will demand it from us.

We can expect combat with the mind worm, shortly, and possibly combat with Yang if he gets mad at us.

In the main forum, fuss is being made about the time it takes us to take a turn...

	31-07-2004 12:07									#14
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I don't think +4 econ gives +2 at the base square as compared to +3 econ. Chaunk, you may be thinking of +3 econ vs. +2 econ.

IA would save 3 mins at MorInd if it's still building a crawler, but we'd save those mins regardless because it won't be at 10 mins yet and can't be rushed cheaply a turn earlier.

Wealth is mandatory once we complete IA. My point was that one extra turn at wealth doesn't recoup the inefficiency losses.

I vote Synth Garrison at MorVul. The chances of the former losing are small, but the damage of losing a base is catastrophic. The Synth unit can explore south to see what's going on down there, then disband toward a CP or SC.

	31-07-2004 14:00									#15
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I did some testing in the scenario editor (Which has been known to give some funny results, but not with this I don't think...) and got 4 energy per base square with +3 econ, and 6 energy from the base square with +4 econ.

IA would save 2 mins, not 3. That's the penalty for retooling to a crawler from a CP in this case. More or less insignificant, but not really something I'd like to happen too often.

I'm gonna have breakfast to think over the MorVul situation. I'm currently leaning towards no change in production as the former will almost certainly be safe, but the risks are quite large. Playing safe loses quite a lot though.

Expect the turn out within an hour and a half.

	31-07-2004 15:17									#16
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Good thing I checked my figures again before playing. Will change to a scout. With the switch to wealth in three turns, we don't pay as much for the CP rush, and so it'll be far cheaper this way in terms of ecs. The mineral loss is entirely made up for in the ec loss. Therefore, consider the turn finalised as the end turn above with the following done:

Former in MorVul - no movement.
MorVul switched to Scout Patrol.
Sliders changed to 50/0/50.

	31-07-2004 17:37									#17
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@ double-checking... I admit I was hit by the lazy stick and didn't check for myself.

	31-07-2004 18:43									#18
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quote: Originally posted by jtsisyoda I don't think +4 econ gives +2 at the base square as compared to +3 econ. Chaunk, you may be thinking of +3 econ vs. +2 econ. IA would save 3 mins at MorInd if it's still building a crawler, but we'd save those mins regardless because it won't be at 10 mins yet and can't be rushed cheaply a turn earlier. Wealth is mandatory once we complete IA. My point was that one extra turn at wealth doesn't recoup the inefficiency losses. I vote Synth Garrison at MorVul. The chances of the former losing are small, but the damage of losing a base is catastrophic. The Synth unit can explore south to see what's going on down there, then disband toward a CP or SC.

ECONOMY:
-3: -2 energy per base(why I don't know, this is impossible to get to)
-2: -1 energy per base
-1:-1 energy hq base.
0:Standard energy rates
1:+1 energy each base
2:+1 energy each square
3:+1 energy each square, +1 commerce!
4:+1 energy/square,+2energy/base,+2 commerce
5:+1 energy/square;+4energy/base,+3 commerce

	31-07-2004 21:10									#19
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The manual is wrong on many occasions, Whoha. Our current +3 Econ provides +1 energy/square and +2 energy/base.

	31-07-2004 21:25									#20
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In this case though I've noticed a pop in base energy before at +4, so I assumed the manual was correct, it looks like +4 gives even more energy.

	31-07-2004 22:02									#21
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I think the manual is slightly wrong in this. Economy has a static effect of +1 energy in the base square per positive economy point. For example, +1 econ means +1 energy from the base square, +3, +3 energy from the base square.

At +4, the manual says there is another free energy point. It is correct, but it's aditional on top of the usual pattern. +4 econ gives +5 energy to the base square, not +4. I believe +5 econ gives +6 energy and so forth.

	01-08-2004 00:05									#22
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Playing around with some saved games I had as Morgan a while ago.

+1 econ gives +1 energy to base square
+3 econ gives +2 energy to base square
+4 econ gives +4 energy to base square
+5 & +6 econ gave no further differences in energy at base square. I don't remember if it effects commerce.