31-07-2004 01:36									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi If I can put up with Molly's posts, then I don't see why they should be forbidden.

I don't proselytize- I use cut and paste to support the thrust or detail of my argument.

You assert the magi were three kings, I go to the Catholic Encyclopaedia, a dictionary, and a Biblical concordance to show that no Early Church fathers thought of them as kings, the magi were a Zoroastrian caste of priest-astrologers and the Bible described astrologers as an abomination in the sight of the Lord (Leviticus/Deuteronomy).

I wouldn't want you to take my word for it- it's not gospel after all.


Rather different from Mr Nice Sermonizer's post.

edited- spelling mistake

	31-07-2004 01:37									#32
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quote: I agree that traditions can prevent some from learning more truth as it may be revealed but then comes a new "prohpet" who starts new traditions that stifle truth.

Walking on the right or the left. Doesn't mean that there cannot be something in the middle, which is what Shi was hinting at.

Tradition in itself, is not bad, nor is progressive revelation. Both can be argued for from scripture, and a balance between the two avoids both of these problems. You need tradition to help confine and direct inquiries, and you need change to keep the church from stagnating.

quote: I don't attend any church now after many years of observing the words of Jesus used to justify almost anything that makes more money for the church or increases it's worldly power.

There are many who do not care for these things Lincoln, but it saddens me to hear you say this.

quote: however it seems to me that the church is in the same position it was in when Jesus came the first time. We cannot see it now and they could not see it then.

Hidebound by tradition?

	31-07-2004 01:38									#33
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quote: You assert the magi were three kings, I go to the Catholic Encyclopaedia, a dictionary, and a Biblical concordance to show that no Early Church fathers thought of them as kings, the magi were a Zoroastrian caste of priest-astrologers and the Bible described astrologers as an abomination in the sight of the Lord

Obviously, I still have some of my correspondence to catch up with.

	31-07-2004 01:50									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Obviously, I still have some of my correspondence to catch up with.

Kenobic for: I was wrong.

	31-07-2004 01:53									#35
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom fatuous jejune jackass...

If only I had thought of those words before I titled my last book.

	31-07-2004 01:54									#36
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quote: Kenobic for: I was wrong.

I haven't read your argument yet.

Give me a break.

	31-07-2004 02:00									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln If only I had thought of those words before I titled my last book.

It was a work of autobiography?

	31-07-2004 02:06									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi I haven't read your argument yet. Give me a break.

Just saving you the trip.



Argument?

All I do is cut and paste, according to a religionista and a high school kid.


Must be true then.


Equally

	31-07-2004 02:10									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Walking on the right or the left. Doesn't mean that there cannot be something in the middle, which is what Shi was hinting at. Tradition in itself, is not bad, nor is progressive revelation. Both can be argued for from scripture, and a balance between the two avoids both of these problems. You need tradition to help confine and direct inquiries, and you need change to keep the church from stagnating. There are many who do not care for these things Lincoln, but it saddens me to hear you say this. Hidebound by tradition?

I am happy that you have found the balance in your church. I grew tired of looking. I agree with what you said. I am a devout Christian btw but I think that supporting the confusion that now purports to be the church of the living God is beyond what Jesus requires. Of course there was the poor widow who was commended by Jesus for throwing in her two pence to support the Pharisees... But I guess I have seen too much. It seems like loving one's neighbor is really not that difficult of a precept to understand. Jeremiah had a few things to say that are worth repeating today.

	31-07-2004 02:14									#40
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom It was a work of autobiography?

No. If it was an autobiography I would have only needed some big words that mean slow learner. Maybe you can help me...

	31-07-2004 02:18									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln No. If it was an autobiography I would have only needed some big words that mean slow learner. Maybe you can help me...

Fundamentalist.


5 syllables.

	31-07-2004 02:29									#42
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Actually I started out quite innocently. I was quite happy flying airplanes and stealing things that didn't belong to me and making alot of money. I never "found God" in any church. Then, later I did get involved with a few churches (one fundamentalist) but it was all a great learning experience that is still ongoing. I guess one could title the book, "The shepherd finds the dog who thought he was a shepherd." There are a couple of ways to read that.

	31-07-2004 02:38									#43
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quote: Argument? All I do is cut and paste, according to a religionista and a high school kid. Must be true then.

This is after I defended you in the thread.

"No good deed ever goes unpunished."

	31-07-2004 02:45									#44
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quote: I am happy that you have found the balance in your church.

Have I found this in any one congregation?

I split time between the Mennonites and the Catholics.

And even with the Mennonites, I spend time in both the English congregation and the Russians.

So I can't give credit to just one.

quote: I am a devout Christian btw

I do not doubt this, nor have I ever doubted.

That's why I thought it sad that you haven't found that fulfillment.

quote: but I think that supporting the confusion that now purports to be the church of the living God is beyond what Jesus requires.

We are confused, and this confusion is very widespread, and harmful to everyone, not just the Christians. But we need each other, and that means we need to work much harder to keep together than we would otherwise. We are teething, and it is painful.

quote: Jeremiah had a few things to say that are worth repeating today.

What quotes are you reminded of?

	31-07-2004 02:46									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi This is after I defended you in the thread. "No good deed ever goes unpunished."

If by not pointing out how my posts, in substance, differ greatly from Mr Nice Missionary's previous posts in this thread, then you somehow think that means you defended me, you're sadly mistaken.

	31-07-2004 02:50									#46
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quote: If by not pointing out how my posts, in substance, differ greatly from Mr Nice Missionary's previous posts in this thread, then you somehow think that means you defended me, you're sadly mistaken.

I have great respect for Mr. Nice Guy.

Ergo, it is a high compliment.

	31-07-2004 03:10									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi We are confused, and this confusion is very widespread, and harmful to everyone, not just the Christians. But we need each other, and that means we need to work much harder to keep together than we would otherwise. We are teething, and it is painful. What quotes are you reminded of?

Thanks. Here chapter 23 from Jeremiah. I am sure you can find many more. Keep in mind this time that he may be making some reference to things as they exist today:

Jer:23:1: Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the Lord.
Jer:23:2: Therefore thus saith the Lord God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the Lord.
Jer:23:3: And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.
Jer:23:4: And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the Lord.
Jer:23:5: Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Jer:23:6: In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE Lord OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Jer:23:7: Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that they shall no more say, The Lord liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
Jer:23:8: But, The Lord liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.
Jer:23:9: Mine heart within me is broken because of the prophets; all my bones shake; I am like a drunken man, and like a man whom wine hath overcome, because of the Lord, and because of the words of his holiness.
Jer:23:10: For the land is full of adulterers; for because of swearing the land mourneth; the pleasant places of the wilderness are dried up, and their course is evil, and their force is not right.
Jer:23:11: For both prophet and priest are profane; yea, in my house have I found their wickedness, saith the Lord.
Jer:23:12: Wherefore their way shall be unto them as slippery ways in the darkness: they shall be driven on, and fall therein: for I will bring evil upon them, even the year of their visitation, saith the Lord.
Jer:23:13: And I have seen folly in the prophets of Samaria; they prophesied in Baal, and caused my people Israel to err.
Jer:23:14: I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness; they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.
Jer:23:15: Therefore thus saith the Lord of hosts concerning the prophets; Behold, I will feed them with wormwood, and make them drink the water of gall: for from the prophets of Jerusalem is profaneness gone forth into all the land.
Jer:23:16: Thus saith the Lord of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the Lord.
Jer:23:17: They say still unto them that despise me, The Lord hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.
Jer:23:18: For who hath stood in the counsel of the Lord, and hath perceived and heard his word? who hath marked his word, and heard it?
Jer:23:19: Behold, a whirlwind of the Lord is gone forth in fury, even a grievous whirlwind: it shall fall grievously upon the head of the wicked.
Jer:23:20: The anger of the Lord shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.
Jer:23:21: I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.
Jer:23:22: But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.
Jer:23:23: Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off?
Jer:23:24: Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord.
Jer:23:25: I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed.
Jer:23:26: How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart;
Jer:23:27: Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal.
Jer:23:28: The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the Lord.
Jer:23:29: Is not my word like as a fire? saith the Lord; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?
Jer:23:30: Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that steal my words every one from his neighbour.
Jer:23:31: Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that use their tongues, and say, He saith.
Jer:23:32: Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the Lord, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the Lord.
Jer:23:33: And when this people, or the prophet, or a priest, shall ask thee, saying, What is the burden of the Lord? thou shalt then say unto them, What burden? I will even forsake you, saith the Lord.
Jer:23:34: And as for the prophet, and the priest, and the people, that shall say, The burden of the Lord, I will even punish that man and his house.
Jer:23:35: Thus shall ye say every one to his neighbour, and every one to his brother, What hath the Lord answered? and, What hath the Lord spoken?
Jer:23:36: And the burden of the Lord shall ye mention no more: for every man's word shall be his burden; for ye have perverted the words of the living God, of the Lord of hosts our God.
Jer:23:37: Thus shalt thou say to the prophet, What hath the Lord answered thee? and, What hath the Lord spoken?
Jer:23:38: But since ye say, The burden of the Lord; therefore thus saith the Lord; Because ye say this word, The burden of the Lord, and I have sent unto you, saying, Ye shall not say, The burden of the Lord;
Jer:23:39: Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you, and the city that I gave you and your fathers, and cast you out of my presence:
Jer:23:40: And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.
(KJV)

	31-07-2004 03:24									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi I have great respect for Mr. Nice Guy. Ergo, it is a high compliment.

I don't.

Ergo, it ain't.

	31-07-2004 03:30									#49
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molly:

Thus, the truth of the quote.

	31-07-2004 03:39									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi molly: Thus, the truth of the quote.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

Exodus 20

(King James Authorized Version)

	31-07-2004 03:46									#51
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It is an example of two people who just don't see eye to eye.

I can be sincerely complimenting you, but you don't see that as a compliment.

	31-07-2004 03:54									#52
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http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/...=on&showxref=on

Mark 13
21At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ[1] !' or, 'Look, there he is!' do not believe it. 22For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible. 23So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time.

Footnotes

1. 13:21 Or Messiah



For an example of exactly what I am talking about :

http://www.mormonchallenge.com/

OR click the following link if the online video doesn't work for you:

http://www.myfaith.com/Mormon-Video.htm

	31-07-2004 04:06									#53
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I do not see that Mr. Nice Guy has made a point. He has argued that "traditional" religion could be corrupt, but he has provided no specific argument that traditional religion as it is practiced today is in fact corrupt. I suppose that if one practices tradition without belief, or substitutes tradition for real spiritiuality, or uses traditional religion for personal gain that may be true, but he has not proven that these are the cases for most adherents to traditional religion. Indeed he hasn't even clearly defined which denominatioons he would consider to be culpable, or even if he was referring to particular denominations.

I once read a passage by C. S. Elliott in which he offerred his view of the spiritual benefits of religious traditions. He asserted that most Christians, even the devout, will go through highs and lows of spirituality. Religious tradition he argued keeps us going during the low periods.

	31-07-2004 04:20									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi It is an example of two people who just don't see eye to eye. I can be sincerely complimenting you, but you don't see that as a compliment.

I happen to like pigs.


I'd be wary of complimenting a Muslim friend with pig references. Or dog comparisons for that matter.
So save your Mr. Nice Witnesser compliments for someone who'd like them.

In any case, the point, as should be startlingly obvious except to religionistas such as Elok and kiddies up past their bedtime such as Kuciwalker, is that I don't paste large chunks of moral philosophy or quotes from atheists in order to show what I believe or proselytize on behalf of my beliefs, when the question of what I believe in has not been addressed.

	31-07-2004 04:29									#55
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Here is another site that reveals false teachings:

http://www.freeminds.org/

And here is another:

http://www.gospeloutreach.net/wordfaith.html

	31-07-2004 04:40									#56
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And here is a site of one of the worst false prophet groups I've ever heard about :

http://www.godhatesfags.com/

A IMPORTANT NOTE ON THIS ONE: According the WORD of God (Bible) it is perfectly ok for Christians to preach against sin. It is NOT OK preach against sinners themselves or to commit acts of violence against them.


1 Peter 3

All Christians

8Finally, all of you should be of one mind, full of sympathy toward each other, loving one another with tender hearts and humble minds. 9Don't repay evil for evil. Don't retaliate when people say unkind things about you. Instead, pay them back with a blessing. That is what God wants you to do, and he will bless you for it. 10For the Scriptures say,

"If you want a happy life and good days,
keep your tongue from speaking evil,
and keep your lips from telling lies.

	31-07-2004 04:47									#57
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'In the Bullsh!t Department, a businessman can't hold a candle to a clergyman. 'Cause I gotta tell you the truth, folks. When it comes to bullsh!t, big-time, major league bullsh!t, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims:

religion.

No contest. No contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bullsh!t story ever told.

Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man -- living in the sky -- who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

But He loves you.

He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bullsh!t story. Holy Sh!t!


George Carlin Politically Incorrect, May 29, 1997


When you can turn people on their head and shake them and no money falls out, then you know God's saying, "Move on, son."

A. A. Allen, to Marjoe Gortner,

quoted in James A Haught:

"Covering the Bible Belt II: A Freethinker’s Testimony"


If we have to give up either religion or education, we should give up education.

William Jennings Bryan, contribution to

'The Commoner' (January, 1923), quoted from George Seldes, ed., 'The Great Thoughts' (1985)

	31-07-2004 05:08									#58
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Actually atheism is the fools game. Imagine a universe that made itself laws that told pond scum on some planet that cooled itself enough to align RNA into a specified order so that it could evolve into a single cell somehow and then turn into intelligent life that is supported by a complete system that is balanced perfectly. Everything just fell into place somehow in order for flatuous jejurn jackass atheists to pretend that they are intelligent!

	31-07-2004 05:40									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Actually atheism is the fools game. Imagine a universe that made itself laws that told pond scum on some planet that cooled itself enough to align RNA into a specified order so that it could evolve into a single cell somehow and then turn into intelligent life that is supported by a complete system that is balanced perfectly. Everything just fell into place somehow in order for flatuous jejurn jackass atheists to pretend that they are intelligent!

It might have worked better had you used spellcheck, but saying that an atheist is pretending to be intelligent and then misspelling one of their quotes looks a tad amateur.

I haven't yet been uncomplimentary about religion, but carry on in that vein and I'm sure we'll see.

	31-07-2004 05:45									#60
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom For the first time a religionista has almost prompted me to use 'ignore', but then that would reduce me to his level. Perhaps if you used 'cut and paste' to SUPPORT your ludicrous assertions, Elok, such as 'atheism= a religion' instead of relying on your own, um, power of reasoning, and uh, 'chain of thought', you wouldn't appear such a fatuous jejune jackass. Oh Kuciwalker- it's a lesson you could learn too, next time you can't tell the difference between Aristotle's Lyceum and the Athenian Academy, or fail to recognise the words of any of your country's Founding Fathers. Of course what Mr. Nice Proselytizer did is far different from what I do, but perhaps you aren't yet mature enough to see that.

Oh, come on! It's a joke! Sheesh.