31-07-2004 05:52									#61
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom It might have worked better had you used spellcheck, but saying that an atheist is pretending to be intelligent and then misspelling one of their quotes looks a tad amateur. I haven't yet been uncomplimentary about religion, but carry on in that vein and I'm sure we'll see.

Your previous post is not uncomplimentary about religion? By the way, do you have anything to say about the topic of this thread?

	31-07-2004 06:05									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Your previous post is not uncomplimentary about religion? By the way, do you have anything to say about the topic of this thread?

I quoted George Carlin.

I didn't say I agreed with him, and in case you weren't aware, I'm not George Carlin.

I also quoted two Christians, A. A. Allen and William Jennings Bryan.

Their beliefs and opinions are their own too.

Seems to me the religionistas are usually the first to get involved with the insults and the 'all atheists are' schtick, at least if previous experience of the ones on this board is anything to go by.

	31-07-2004 06:07									#63
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Yet another false religious movement:

Liberation Theology

	31-07-2004 06:13									#64
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Oh come on Molly. You just quoted the negative comments for the hell of it, right? Why can't you at least be honest? I know you don't believe in "thou shalt not lie" and all but really...

	31-07-2004 06:15									#65
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And another:

http://www.carm.org/christian_science.htm

And another:

http://www.carm.org/oneness.htm

	31-07-2004 06:19									#66
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An atheist is a guy who watches a Notre Dame-SMU football game and doesn't care who wins.
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

(disclaimer) The above opinion is not my own. I only quoted it because I only have complimentary things to say about atheists.

	31-07-2004 06:46									#68
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Here is another:

Seventh-Day Adventist

And another:

Baha'ism

And another:

Shepard's Chapel

	31-07-2004 07:57									#69
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Of course, these are only a handful of false Christian religious movements and denominations. Clearly there are many many more out there, but these are the best examples I can give you.

So what is the entire point of this thread. Clearly it is this:

Matthew 7
A Tree and Its Fruit

15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?

Matthew 24
10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,

Matthew 24
23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.

Mark 13
21At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ[1] !' or, 'Look, there he is!' do not believe it. 22For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible. 23So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time.

Footnotes

1. 13:21 Or Messiah

2 Peter 2

False Teachers and Their Destruction

1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.

1 John 4

Test the Spirits

1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,

Revelation 22

18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.



Q: So if there so many false prophets and false Christs (Messiahs) what exactly is legitimate Christianity?

A: Legimate Christian faith is the oldest Christian faith there is. The original Christianity. The Christianity taught by Jeus himself to his 12 disciples and from the disciples to the peoples of the world who were alive during the time that the disciples were spreading the good news of Jesus to the world (you can read about this story in the book of Acts). And from those peoples passed down from generation to generation. It is called Traditional (pr Fundamental) Christianity and it is the unchanged, unaltered, unedited form of Christianity. The Alpha and the Omega. The first and the last.



Today, Christianity has nearly 2 billion followers and it is by far the world's most popular religion.

But if there are false prophets and false Christs among us, how many of those who claim to be Christian are actually legitimate Christians? This is quite difficult to say.

Fortunately most Christian denominations do implement Traditional Christianity into their doctrines and this has a profound effect on the Christian population at large. I'm going to take my own guess and say that somewhere between 50-75% of all Christians are legitimate saved Christians.

So from what source can one get real answers on what real Christian faith really is? I can only give you one link:

http://bible.gospelcom.net/

That's right--the Bible. And most especially, the New Testament.

And even Legitmate Ministers, Reverends, Pastors, Priests, Prophets, Missionaries, Evangelists (whatever you like to call them) can all help point you in the right direction, but because of the fallen and sinful nature of man, one should never trust them 100%. This reminds of a popular Christian Contemporary song:


Don't Look At Me
Stacie Orrico

Don't look at me if you're looking for perfection
Don't look at me I will only let you down
I'll do my best to point you in the right directon
But don't look at me
No, no, no
Don't look at me, look at Him

Sometimes I have a fear
That you will see a mirror
And get the thought that it's the main attraction
But all that you detect
Is just what I reflect
Of the object of my own affection

I'll lead you to the One I found
He'll give you everything you need

Don't look at me if you're looking for perfection
Don't look at me I will only let you down
I'll do my best to point you in the right direction
But dont' look at me
No, no, no
Dont' look at me, look at Him

It's understandable to want a hero
But people can't meet all your expectations
Still some can teach you things about the love He brings
Just know the source of life is in the Savior

I'll lead you to the One I found
He'll give you everything you need

Don't look at me if you're looking for perfection
Don't look at me I will only let you down
I'll do my best to point you in the right direction
But don't look at me
No,no, no
Don't look at me, look at Him

He's the One who lived a perfect life
He's the One who always gets it right
He's the One and only guiding light, Ohh, yeah
He is everthing you want to be
He's the answer to your every need
If you follow Him then you will se He's like no other

Ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh yeah

I'll do my best to point you in the right direction
But don't look at me
No, no, no
Don't look at me
Oh, dont look at me
I'll only let you down
I'll do my best to point you in the right direction
no no no no no oh oh look at Him
yeah, yeah

Look to God for the real answers to your questions. Look to the Bible, the WORD of God. DO NOT put all your eggs in one basket and depend on human beings to show you the way, the truth and the life.



I will have you know that although the information I've laid out in this thread may be useful to people of faith who are not Christian, the real targeted audience for this thread is Atheists and Agnostics.

Yes, I posted this thread to clear up some of the confusion about how to discern between real Christian faith and false teachings.

Just for good measure, here is a link to further help you tell the difference between a genuine Christian church and a cult:

http://www.victorious.org/chur03.htm

	31-07-2004 09:16									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy And here is a site of one of the worst false prophet groups I've ever heard about

Let me remind you that you have been warned about copy-n-paste proselytising. Pasting links doesn't help.

	01-08-2004 03:22									#71
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quote: is that I don't paste large chunks of moral philosophy or quotes from atheists in order to show what I believe or proselytize on behalf of my beliefs, when the question of what I believe in has not been addressed.

Farrell Till?

You might not start topics on the subject, but you aren't shy to quote atheists on the topic to defend your beliefs. There's nothing wrong with that, so why are you apologising?

Still, on this point, I defend both you and Mr. Nice Guy because you have shown the capacity to argue, unlike the Krishnabot.

	01-08-2004 03:28									#72
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MNG, you're a true brother of mac and all that, but that Stacy Orifice song is terrible.

	01-08-2004 16:42									#73
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Pray for My forgiveness, Kuciwalker, for you have sinned. You have, by injudicious quoting, caused me to read several lines of snide Bloomtalk. I sentence you to do twenty rosaries while reading from Paul Reiser's latest book, or another similarly bland and inoffensive tome of your choice.

Hmph.

Anyway, MNG, perhaps you don't realize that the New Testament wasn't even standardized until the first ecumenical council at Nicaea, during the reign of Constantine? In other words, the Word of God you're quoting so much was selected and authorized by a "Dead Tradition of Men." There goes your whole argument.

	01-08-2004 19:18									#74
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Lincoln: As somewhat of an atheist (I'm probably more agnostic), I believe we can't possibly know if there is a God. But I do find the notion of God to be rather silly. Christianity (and other deity based religions) seems like adults playing with an imaginary friend.

The only reasonable belief system is the one that doesn't jump to conclusions when reason fails to explain everything. Science poses theories to existence. While science may not help us understand why we exist, it helps us understand the processes through which we were created. You can believe in an all-powerful intelligence or creator if you want... perhaps someone did create us. I don't know for sure either way. But science has proven that the Bible's creation story is a myth. Shouldn't we treat such literature as myth and parable when it is certain it isn't literal truth?

	01-08-2004 21:31									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Sava But science has proven that the Bible's creation story is a myth.

Lincoln is a YEC (Young Earth Creationist) if you haven't noticed...

	01-08-2004 22:04									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/...=on&showxref=on Mark 13 21At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ[1] !' or, 'Look, there he is!' do not believe it. 22For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible. 23So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time.

So anyone who speaks about Christ is lying?

	01-08-2004 22:55									#77
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Well, in most cases, if they aren't lying, they're misinformed

Religionists being a case in point

	02-08-2004 00:10									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Elok Pray for My forgiveness, Kuciwalker, for you have sinned. You have, by injudicious quoting, caused me to read several lines of snide Bloomtalk.

Dear Elok- I hope you will grow to learn the difference between wit and humour and what you regularly puke up in your threads whenever it is you think you're going graduate out of your mental shallows to be funny.

If you're labouring under the assumption that you have grasped the thorny nettle of irony, satire or wit and are competent to use its fruit, you are due for a rude awakening.

'You might not start topics on the subject'

Obi Gyn

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.


Find me a thread I've started where I've done what Mr. Nice Holy Roller's done.

Otherwise you either can't read English, or you're deliberately misrepresenting what I do in order to defend a fellow adherent of your superstition- not something that Christians don't have experience with.

I don't generate large posts replete with the moral philosophy of atheist thinkers in order to show the world what I believe in- what I do is offer counter arguments for those who would readily believe the erroneous assertions of others who cannot even get factual elements of the birth narratives of their chosen deity correct, and think that religious texts are history, when they ain't.

Lying for god, Obi Gyn?

'How it may be Lawful and Fitting to use Falsehood as a Medicine, and for the Benefit of those who Want to be Deceived. '

Eusebius would approve. As would Jerome, and John Chrysostom, et cetera, et cetera,....

	02-08-2004 02:49									#79
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom . . .or you're deliberately misrepresenting what I do in order to defend a fellow adherent of your superstition- not something that Christians don't have experience with.

You're absolutely right on this one, molly. Too many times I've evangelized to non-Christians and they just try to play stupid to win an argument. Playing stupid is just one of the many ways to troll. I use to fall for this trap too many times in the past, but now with experience I'm keenly aware of what's going on and I don't fall for this kind of rhetoric anymore.

	02-08-2004 04:24									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Lincoln: As somewhat of an atheist (I'm probably more agnostic), I believe we can't possibly know if there is a God. But I do find the notion of God to be rather silly. Christianity (and other deity based religions) seems like adults playing with an imaginary friend. The only reasonable belief system is the one that doesn't jump to conclusions when reason fails to explain everything. Science poses theories to existence. While science may not help us understand why we exist, it helps us understand the processes through which we were created. You can believe in an all-powerful intelligence or creator if you want... perhaps someone did create us. I don't know for sure either way. But science has proven that the Bible's creation story is a myth. Shouldn't we treat such literature as myth and parable when it is certain it isn't literal truth?

Thanks for your post, Sava. First off, Urban Ranger is wrong (I won't say as usual here). I am NOT a young earth creationist. What I am is a believer in Jesus Christ and the message he gave to mankind as it is recorded in the Bible. As far as biblical interpretation goes, I really do not know the correct interpretation, especially of the old testament. My take generally on the Bible is that it is a spiritual book and must be understood from a spiritual perspective. It is foolhardy in my opinion to expect the truths hiden in it's text to be understood when Jesus specifically said that he has purposely not revealed them except as he sees fit. An example is found here:

Mt:13:9: Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Mt:13:10: And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mt:13:11: He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mt:13:12: For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mt:13:13: Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mt:13:14: And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mt:13:15: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Mt:13:16: But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

and also here:

1Cor:2:11: For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Cor:2:12: Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Cor:2:13: Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Cor:2:14: But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

	02-08-2004 04:37									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy You're absolutely right on this one, molly. Too many times I've evangelized to non-Christians.

If you'd only stopped there we would have found common ground.

	02-08-2004 08:34									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Thanks for your post, Sava. First off, Urban Ranger is wrong (I won't say as usual here). I am NOT a young earth creationist.

The website in your sig says differently, Lincoln. So's your book.

	02-08-2004 08:47									#83
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I didn't wade through the OP in its entirety, but I agree with the point I saw: traditional religion, by its unwillingness to adapt and change the doctrine, is bound to always be far from the truth.

And this is what makes science, despite all its flaws, superior to religion in the pursuit of the truth: science questions everything it has produced, and adapts permanently. Religion keeps the same outdated texts as a reference, and tries to adapt the world to the texts (see the creationist craze, or pretty much every "God in the gaps" argument), instead of the other way around.

	02-08-2004 21:48									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I didn't wade through the OP in its entirety, but I agree with the point I saw: traditional religion, by its unwillingness to adapt and change the doctrine, is bound to always be far from the truth.

This can only be acceptable to those who believe the true gospel/religion has never been on the earth.

	02-08-2004 21:51									#85
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Can you "believe" the truth or do "believe" something to be true?

Truth is something that is known, not believed.

	03-08-2004 03:28									#86
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quote: As somewhat of an atheist (I'm probably more agnostic), I believe we can't possibly know if there is a God.

Actually, that's an agnostic position. If we cannot know, then we cannot say conclusively that God does not exist.

I would argue that you are right to say that if God does not want us to know about him, then there is no way that we will. However, God does want us to know him, and therefore we can come to know him.

quote: But I do find the notion of God to be rather silly. Christianity (and other deity based religions) seems like adults playing with an imaginary friend.

Are there any other kinds of religions?

Secondly, if God is nothing other than our imaginary friend, why not have someone softer, who does not judge us for our actions?

quote: The only reasonable belief system is the one that doesn't jump to conclusions when reason fails to explain everything.

True. However, I think Christianity has thought out many things, and bases them on the experiences that people have had throughout the centuries in trying to understand the ways of God.

quote: But science has proven that the Bible's creation story is a myth. Shouldn't we treat such literature as myth and parable when it is certain it isn't literal truth?

How has science proven the first part of Genesis to be a myth?

	03-08-2004 03:31									#87
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quote: So anyone who speaks about Christ is lying?

Not exactly. The passage seems to only deal with those who say that Christ has returned, of whom we have seen many such prophets since his death. When Christ returns, everyone will know. It will not be hidden, and he will come as a thief in the night, in that he will come when no one expects him.

	03-08-2004 03:33									#88
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quote: Otherwise you either can't read English, or you're deliberately misrepresenting what I do/

Actually, Molly, these are my words.

quote: You might not start topics on the subject, but you aren't shy to quote atheists on the topic to defend your beliefs. There's nothing wrong with that, so why are you apologising?

I suggest you quit picking on someone who's trying to defend your conduct against other 'religionists'.

	03-08-2004 03:39									#89
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Spiffor:

quote: And this is what makes science, despite all its flaws, superior to religion in the pursuit of the truth: science questions everything it has produced,

How so?

Paul admonishes Christians to 'test all things, and to hold fast to that which is good.'

How is this any different from science?

quote: Religion keeps the same outdated texts as a reference, and tries to adapt the world to the texts

As opposed to Aristotle, I suppose, or Ptolemy and his epicycles.

	03-08-2004 03:42									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Not exactly. The passage seems to only deal with those who say that Christ has returned, of whom we have seen many such prophets since his death. When Christ returns, everyone will know. It will not be hidden, and he will come as a thief in the night, in that he will come when no one expects him.

Yes, I was just wondering why he was connecting it to the LDS Church - the First Vision, the Book of Mormon, etc.