05-08-2004 04:51									#31
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yeah it's worth it, but I rarely have ivory. But really, I don't try too hard to get it. But I would like to prevent my closes neighbors from getting it. I don't care if it is made on some distant continent.

Although that does have an effect near the end of the game. At the higher difficulties I'm playing, I am discovering that one civ seems to utterly dominate the "other" continent. There is nothing I can do about this. They are often bigger than I am. If they had any decent manufacturing capability and research they may actually pose a shot at beating me.

	05-08-2004 06:10									#32
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The best thing you can do in such a case is the following: Make that civ declare war on you (it shouldn't be too difficult), ally with everyone else on that continent against the civ (supplying them with needed resources even if it is your last resource, even for free), sit back and watch.

It works like charm.

	05-08-2004 18:56									#33
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Thats my favorite... a couple of times i've seen the huge civ stomp over everybody else, but ive found myself being left alone, meaning I can research and build while the huge civ is bogged down in a huge war. By the time im taking it on directly, I can usually boast a healthy tech/infrastructure lead.

	05-08-2004 20:56									#34
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This post concerns Vanilla Civ III.

For a long time, I thought Democracy gave you extra commerce compared to Republic. The Civilopedia text could be interpreted that way. But on any significant scale, it doesn't.

There's also what I would call a misleading entry in the Civilopedia concerning corruption and waste in Rep. and Dem. It says that corruption and waste is a "nuisance" in Rep and "minimal" in Dem, while in reality they are almost exactly the same.

I tested it out in a game with 162 cities spread out over an entire standard size map (AI had only 1 small city left) playing as a religious civ so I could switch in one turn, and there was hardly any noticeable difference in income, production or corruption from Dem to Rep.

On one turn I had the following after holding a revolt and choosing Dem:

commerce 5952
corruption 3787 (63.63%)
mfg. goods 813
productivity 3865

On the same turn (after reloading the previous turn, holding the revolt and choosing Rep) I had:

commerce 5934, down 0.30%
corruption 3839, up 1.37% (64.69%)
mfg. goods 797, down 1.97%
productivity 3779, down 2.23%

Very little difference there, certainly not enough to warrant a switch in a game that has the AI still being a somewhat serious rival.

So the only difference between the two types of government of any importance is that in Dem, your workers are faster and you experience more war weariness. A bit poor when you think about it, that the developers didn't make the choice between the two modern peacetime governments more interesting.

Last edited by Winston on 05-08-2004 at 22:18

	05-08-2004 21:20									#35
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162 cities is quite a lot. The difference may be more pronounced on a regular map (because a majority of the cities are closer to the capitol/FP than on a map with 162 cities). I never have more than 25 or 30 cities myself.

	05-08-2004 21:23									#36
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Winston, I had similar results in C3C with a similar sized empire. I wasn't religious, but just skipped through the revolt in a "time machine" save. That helped sell me on Republic. Two things on your post:

1. Dem has more WW than Republic, and I believe that's been true from day one, so really the only benefit, besides marginal corruption reduction, is the worker speed.

2. In C3C, the unit support added to Republic, as I've said before, more than outweighs the corruption reduction. I may gain 100-200 more uncorrupted commerce, but I'll be paying 300+ in unit support, meaning I'll actually have less commerce to divide between science, luxuries and the treasury. With the unit support, I can build 50% more workers and not spend a penny more.

	05-08-2004 22:18									#37
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Solomwi, good to see you have similar results in C3C. And yes, I meant to say more WW in Dem, not less. I will edit the post so as not to confuse anyone.

And I agree, with the added unit support for Rep in C3C, in any "normal" game situation there is no reason at all to go into Dem, even if you're religious and can change almost instantly. Doesn't make much sense to me that Democracy isn't a more sophisticated choice of government, but there we are.

	05-08-2004 22:31									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident 162 cities is quite a lot. The difference may be more pronounced on a regular map (because a majority of the cities are closer to the capitol/FP than on a map with 162 cities). I never have more than 25 or 30 cities myself.

On a percentage basis, yes, but even the absolute difference, which will be made up in the core, of course, wasn't great. 52 extra raw commerce comes out to 130 overall commerce (+50% lib/mark, +50% uni/bank, +50% research lab/stock market). That goes away with the 131st unit built. I could see it being worthwhile, maybe, in small builder games, but I typically have 130+ workers, much less military units.

I would be interested in seeing the results on smaller maps, though.

	06-08-2004 00:20									#39
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Just one thing, the 52+18 difference in the commerce/corruption figures above is actually the overall difference, not extra "raw" commerce.

The thing I call commerce in the results was taken from the "income from cities" on the F1 screen which, as you know, is the same as the GNP figure on the F11 screen. So it's a total of 70 extra commerce in Dem vs. Rep. Not much to write home about.

And perhaps I ought to say that none of my cities were on Wealth, they were all producing something at the time. And I was running 4.4.2 for the treasury/research/luxury allocation.

	06-08-2004 01:35									#40
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I got the 52 number from the drop in corruption. Since corrupted gold isn't multiplied by improvements, it's a good measure of the difference, as long as your citizens are working the same tiles. IOW, Rep and Dem give the same raw commerce before corruption. Therefore, the single most important number in the comparison is the corruption drop.

If you'll notice, the top left corner of the F1 screen balances, which means "Income from Cities" does include multiplicative effects. The corrupted gold, though, eliminates that variable, along with wealth-building and specialists.

The extra 18 is just a function of your city improvements multiplying the extra gold, and not 18 more raw gold to be multiplied. So, while your empire got 70 more gold from those 52 raw gold, another may get anywhere between 52 and 130, depending on what improvements are in what cities.

	06-08-2004 02:46									#41
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Communism in C3C. It kills off corruption.

	06-08-2004 03:54									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Solomwi 2. In C3C, the unit support added to Republic, as I've said before, more than outweighs the corruption reduction. I may gain 100-200 more uncorrupted commerce, but I'll be paying 300+ in unit support, meaning I'll actually have less commerce to divide between science, luxuries and the treasury. With the unit support, I can build 50% more workers and not spend a penny more.

Usually I have gpt agreements that pay maintenance for my armies, so I can dedicate my entire commerce to science. In this case democracy has a slight advantage compared to republic, so I usually pick democracy when I end my warmongering.

	06-08-2004 04:25									#43
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I disagree that the gpt deals change anything, since they're independent of government type. If you're in a situation where your military upkeep would be larger than the commerce boost, you're still going to pocket less money in democracy than you would in republic, all other things being equal.

	06-08-2004 04:50									#44
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True, but I would generate more commerce in democracy and hence more science if I slide it to 100%, which I usually do late in the game.
Money is of no consequence then.

	06-08-2004 07:58									#45
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I see what you're saying in that outside revenue streams aren't available for science, but in my experience (granted, it's huge map specific), 100% science is more than enough for 4-turn research, even in republic. Thus, the unit support vs. corruption problem boils down to money in the pocket.

	06-08-2004 09:15									#46
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I said I would stay in republic this game, but I did not. I play random civs, and ended up with a religious civ. I did go democracy. Although later I went communism (for the first time in civ3!). I had no hope of getting the tech lead, and I had to try conquest to win the game. though I lost anyways.

Next game I will stay in republic though if I'm not a religious civ. I hope I'm not, I don't care for those- esp the arabs. I was disappointed in them- though their UU was decent.

	06-08-2004 21:56									#47
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I'm surprised there aren't more votes for Communism. Lowest corruption by far (assuming a decent sized empire), excellent unit support, no WW. Plus you're probably going to research it anyway to get police stations. If you're a warmonger, there's no better gov't.

	06-08-2004 22:43									#48
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For most of the game: Republic, HANDS DOWN.

Communism once available. Communism in C3C is awesome (as awesome as it was sucky in PTW), with poprushing being the primary drawback. That's a little annoying, but having every single city productive is worth it.

I typically go Despot -> Republic -> Commie.

I think I may have gone to Demo ONCE since I've had Conquests. No point, IMO. I've even chosen against it as a Religious civ (unit support concerns - Republic is so much better if you have a largish empire & military).

-Arrian

	07-08-2004 00:35									#49
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I didn't seem to get as good as research with communism. If I could manage that, that'd be awesome.

	07-08-2004 01:06									#50
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Diss,

It totally depends on the game situation, of course. I play for "ultimate power" and am therefore seeking a large, powerful empire with a tech lead (which I typically manage on Monarch, instead of playing for more of a challenge on the higher levels). If I didn't have a really big empire, Communism wouldn't be that alluring. Republic does a pretty darn good job if you don't go off conquering lots of other civs' land, and has the advantage of rushbuying instead of poprushing (which I despise and almost never use).

When I switch over, I often experience a temporary reduction in research power. This is because the cities that benifit from the switch are typically underdeveloped (though I tend to use up all but ~1000 gold of my treasury to rushbuy the basics in my corrupt areas pre-revolution) and the cities that are hurt by the switch are my fully-developed core cities. Once the hinterlands come up to speed, however, I regain and surpass my old research power. And of course my production skyrockets.

-Arrian

	07-08-2004 01:08									#51
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In fact, I can think of a couple of games where I never did switch to Communism because my empire was still quite productive under Republic and I was not religious (I hate corruption, but I hate anarchy too). Commercial civs in particular can get pretty big before the corruption really starts getting annoying, and I like playing Commercial civs.

-Arrian

	07-08-2004 01:59									#52
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Yes, commercial is a cheat. So is religious.

I'm just playing a game as India

	07-08-2004 23:17									#53
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I created a government called "Federal Republic", availiable with Democracy. Federal Republic is identical to Republic except that corrution is communal. I think it a good way to represent the governments of large democracies, like the US, Canada, Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, and Russia. It is basically a peacemonger's equivalent of Communism (which I renaimed Stalinism for obvious reasons).

	07-08-2004 23:50									#54
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Sounds to me that Federal Republic would be insanely powerful for big empires.

And that's the catch, I guess; I'm not particularly interested in things optimization once I've got a big empire, since I know I'll win if I continue as is.

	08-08-2004 09:03									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Republic does a pretty darn good job if you don't go off conquering lots of other civs' land, and has the advantage of rushbuying instead of poprushing (which I despise and almost never use).

[Vader]
{whoosh}
Your conversion to the Dark Side is still incomplete.
{whoosh}
[/end Vader]

	08-08-2004 09:05									#56
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

* Theseus makes a gesture at alien pop in a captured city, and they all die completing a Temple to the Dark Side.

	08-08-2004 09:10									#57
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Interesting idea for a mod... make yourself as evil as possible

	10-08-2004 03:45									#58
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If the game lasts long enough for me to research Dem, then I'll always switch to it and damn the number of anarchy turns. I like to play Industrious civs, and with Dem workers get things done so much faster. A game of that length I'm usually back to micro-managing cities, which often requires mining/irrigation changes to be done ASAP: rapid production and continued population growth always need fine-tuning.
Republic is good. I go straight to it from Despotism. I used to occasionally use Monarchy, but not lately. For me, its not worth the anarchy turns. Never tried Fascism. Communism is okay, but not when I have to rush something.
Banana Republics are best played while eating ice cream.

	11-08-2004 01:28									#59
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Depends on how the game turns out at later stages, I usually stay on Republic but I switch to Democracy if peace is my strategy.

So long...

	11-08-2004 23:29									#60
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I have yet played a game where I switch to democracy.. I usually stick with republic unless late in the game I go into war mode and switch to communism.