30-07-2004 20:20									#1
	Republic versus Democracy Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I'm sure we've had many of these back in the day. I just want to see if anyone has anything new to add to the mix. Any new math on the subject?

In another thread Kuci was saying republic is better than 8 turns of anarchy getting into Democracy. Is this true?

What do you all think? I'll even make a poll for your preferred goverment of choice. I'm sure there are a few commies and fascists here that will complain if I don't put their goverment in, so I will. This poll will include C3C goverments.

Last edited by Dis on 30-07-2004 at 20:25

	30-07-2004 21:37									#2
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Other than despot, I would not take 8 turns of anarchy for any governemnt. IOW once I move to something from despot, I am staying if it cost 8 turns to move again.

To me Dem is never going to happen, maybe as a religious civ, but no other way.

	30-07-2004 21:39									#3
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I often go to Manarchy as my early choice. It allows to get belligerent or deal with belligerent neighbors while I grow. It is also not bad for my ego. When things settle down into a more peaceful era, and it is obvious I am pushing ny economy hard to maintain a tech pace, then I switch to Democracy. That will build me up to some strong infrastructure level. (Hopefully) I will then either go through a building competition, (I love space ships!! And I love being a builder!) I will prefer to have short intense wars. (Take that!!) If pressed to a military late age, I have recently had good experiece going to Communism.

As for Republic to Democracy. That's a hard one. At some point I will feel that military upkeep is costing more than my economy will support. That's when to switch to Democracy, if and only if I don't see a big war coming.

Hopefully, someone will give you an answer with more quantifiable parameters than "when it feels right". But sometimes, that is all you have to go on.

	30-07-2004 22:16									#4
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Are we talking SP or MP here? I believe there would be different answers... in SP, lower difficulty levels, one can afford the luxury of the democratic government, but in a fiercely competitive MP, it's highly unlikely, as the cost is simply too high (read: it's not cost-effective unless you are a religious civ).

	30-07-2004 23:34									#5
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No way is democracy worth 8 turns of anarchy over republic.

	31-07-2004 00:10									#6
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Depends on the shape of the game (and whether I'm using the AU Mod).

	31-07-2004 00:56									#7
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When am I even going to get Demo. I am not going to research it at any level above monarch.

But the question was would you make the switch with 8 turns of anarchy. Is anyone really saying they would do that?

	31-07-2004 02:02									#8
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Republic, I get there before Monarchy & stay there. Democracy is good, but unit support & WW is not

	31-07-2004 02:30									#9
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I have and will choose two forms of non-REL gov't. I do it for my enjoyment of the game, sometimes for aggression & poprushign, sometimes for dramatic improvements in productivity. Mon->Demo, or Feud->Fasc/Comm.

	31-07-2004 02:53									#10
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Fascism is an excellent form of government if you play on standard and smaller maps, and are prepared to ethnically cleanse your enemies

Also good if you're a builder(like me).

	31-07-2004 04:45									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus I have and will choose two forms of non-REL gov't. I do it for my enjoyment of the game, sometimes for aggression & poprushign, sometimes for dramatic improvements in productivity. Mon->Demo, or Feud->Fasc/Comm.

Cool, but the question was Rep to Dem. Anyway, doing things you know to not be prosperous for fun is fine. So would you recommend someone to take 8 turns in anarchy to move from Rep to Dem?

To tell you the truth I have not even been in Dem in C3C.

	31-07-2004 06:19									#12
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I always forget to count the turns. I play on Monarch level usually. I think it's around 6 turns of anarchy for me.

I swith 2 times in a game. One from despotism to republic. then republic to democracy.

	31-07-2004 06:20									#13
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However, I will say I usually switch if playing a religious civ.

	31-07-2004 18:53									#14
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Democracies SLIGHT bonus of less corruption that you can't see, and somewhat faster workers(always play the US,Industrialist/Expansionist so its not a real problem) are far and away outweighed by having your entire civilization burn down if someone declares war on you.

	31-07-2004 21:04									#15
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Democracy would be worth the switch if WW wasn't set so high (despite some protests about wars in Iraq and such, i've never seen western cities completely shut down).

As WW is set so high, I would agree that republic is the way to go.

	01-08-2004 08:54									#16
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I don't think I ever switch from Republic to Democracy when I'm NOT a religious civ.

Its generally Republic for me, although I prefer the benefits of Democracy.

Contradictary? Of course.

	01-08-2004 15:46									#17
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Unless you've got more at least eight units per metro, four per city and two per town, Rep pays less unit support than Demo. I rarely find myself with that sort of numbers.

Add a level of WW that actually allows protracted wars, and there's no way I'm going to switch to Demo unless playing a Rel civ.

I usually find myself switching to Rep ASAP, and staying there till the rest of the game. By the time I'm big enough that switiching to Commieness would make sense, I've pretty much won the game, and prefer to get over with it ASAP instead of wasting probably nine turns to change - it's unlikely the increased production of Commieness would make up for the lost time anyway.

	01-08-2004 20:29									#18
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Cool, but the question was Rep to Dem. Anyway, doing things you know to not be prosperous for fun is fine. So would you recommend someone to take 8 turns in anarchy to move from Rep to Dem? To tell you the truth I have not even been in Dem in C3C.

Ahh, yes, sorry, I left out the other part...

REPUBLIC SUCKS.

That's why I didn't answer the question properly... I don;t think I've been in republic since my first few C3C games.

	02-08-2004 22:01									#19
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Republic. Always.
Very rarely i will find a good reason to go into fascism, but that does not happen often.

	03-08-2004 01:48									#20
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Unit support makes Rep preferable to Dem for me. Even in a huge empire, the corruption advantage tends to yield less added gold than it takes to support my lovely armies. So no, I'm not even going through one turn of anarchy to make less money and suffer far greater WW.

	03-08-2004 05:18									#21
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I seem to get better research with Democracy. Are you guys saying democracy doesn't increase research? maybe I'm thinking Civ2 terms. I still tend to play civ3 like I played civ2 in some ways. I believe civ2- democracy had better research.

But my turns/tech does seem to increase.

	03-08-2004 22:04									#22
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I rarely switch governments if I'm not religious. Usually I stay despot very long. Too much pressure, constant wars, huge armies, wonder prebuilds, all these are reasons not to switch.

Only if I have cleared my continent can I find the moment to switch and then I choose democracy.

If I'm religious, I switch to feudalism or monarchy (depends on the size of the cities) as soon as possible and stay there until I clear my continent. Then another switch to democracy.

Needless to say, I can stay despot or monarch up to the modern times playing this way.

	03-08-2004 22:12									#23
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As if democracy wasn't weak enough, you have to out of your way to research it at a time when there are more pressing goals. I usually can't be bothered. Communism, otoh, is one heck of powerful gov't for large empires.

	03-08-2004 22:39									#24
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I can usually get 4 turn research in republic, Diss. Civ2 democracy, IIRC, was gamebreakingly uber-powerful and eradicated corruption and waste across the empire. If it weren't for that damn Senate derailing my world domination plans, that would have been the perfect government.

	03-08-2004 22:44									#25
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Monarchy I have to admit is the government I try to go for from the beginning... much better suited for the early game than republic... ulitmately due to corruption, tech, and commerce I have to change government depending on where I stand I go to democracy/republic/communism, allthough communism comes kinda late... republic vs. demo. I would go for demo. but only if I'm already on top.

	04-08-2004 04:45									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Ljube-ljcvetko I rarely switch governments if I'm not religious. Usually I stay despot very long. Too much pressure, constant wars, huge armies, wonder prebuilds, all these are reasons not to switch. Only if I have cleared my continent can I find the moment to switch and then I choose democracy. If I'm religious, I switch to feudalism or monarchy (depends on the size of the cities) as soon as possible and stay there until I clear my continent. Then another switch to democracy. Needless to say, I can stay despot or monarch up to the modern times playing this way.

Ancient wonders are worthless and impossible to get. I disregard those and switch to Republic ASAP.

	04-08-2004 04:47									#27
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well it's decided. Next game I will not switch to democracy- unless I'm a religious civ.

I think it was a habit for me. because when I first got civ3, I played nothing but religious civs. Aztecs usually. Sometimes the Japanese.

	04-08-2004 05:19									#28
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But if your not a Republic, you can't have the "Grand Army of the Republic" as in Star Wars & The US Civil War

	04-08-2004 14:34									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident Ancient wonders are worthless and impossible to get. I disregard those and switch to Republic ASAP.

Leo's, Sun Tsu's, Mike's and Bach's are the wonders I try to get. Playing this way, staying despot, I can usually get 2 of them at least, sometimes even 3.

	04-08-2004 16:55									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Ljube-ljcvetko Leo's, Sun Tsu's, Mike's and Bach's are the wonders I try to get. Playing this way, staying despot, I can usually get 2 of them at least, sometimes even 3.

None of those are ancient era wonders and yes, they are all good to get.

The one ancient era wonder that most definately is not worthless is Statue of Zeus. If you have ivory, you actually have a decent chance to get it.