01-08-2004 15:11									#31
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus I think Geo and Chaunk's idea is probably best; it would increase the importance of tactics, while not making the opening rounds the sole determinant of victory. However, I think the rules for destroyed ships would need some revision if we went down this route; maybe, instead of removing all ships of a certain type before moving on to the next, eliminate all small ships first, then then the bigger ones?

This idea reduces the number of possible orders of battle which is very bad. In GO1 we had only one round of combat with only 3!=6 possible orders of battle and one-sided results were a rule, one of the fleets being completely obliterated while the victorious one left the battlefield without a scratch.

	01-08-2004 15:18									#32
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Don't forget, under Geo's proposal, you have 36 different possible OOBs, which would drastically reduce the likelihood of such events... although that is a point that needs to be addressed. The level of variety would certainly go down compared to Combat 1.2.

	01-08-2004 15:21									#33
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus It doesn't. You can put any weapon type anywhere in the OOB you want, and unless a fleet is destroyed outright, losses have no effect until the end of combat.

The idea behind this is that in real life you don't fight your battles in rounds, but simultaneously. This would mean that you employ tactics and for instance confront your fighters with the arriving enemy torpedoes and similar. The total losses are then calculated when the dust settles.

This is how real life works, but since this is a game, either is ok. It's GM's call after all. And by the way, I'd like to see details such as cooperative victory (bah ) set firm in the rules.

My contribution to the rules is: If you make an allied attack and your ally is stopped by a spy action, you split the spoils in the previously agreed way regardless.

Another contribution: If you attack someone, but fail because of raised shields and your home bases are captured, your fleet is lost in space.

	01-08-2004 15:39									#34
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus Yes, but AFAIK, you remove a larger ship of the same type ebfore a smaller ship of a different one; e.g. if lasers were first on your OOB, a laser titan would be removed before a fighter frigate.

Really? I thought there was an order (set by Jamski), and all the smallest ships were destroyed according to the order.

	01-08-2004 15:41									#35
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quote: Originally posted by The Rules [*]Remove destroyed ships, smallest first, in the same order as the OoB.

	01-08-2004 15:48									#36
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Size took precedence to OOB though. At least, that is how I interpreted that rule.

	01-08-2004 15:49									#37
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Well, if so, there isn't a problem.

	01-08-2004 15:50									#38
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I have another contribution. You can specify different orders of battle for different situations, not just one offensive and one defensive order of battle.

Example: I'm attacking Dr.Spike with TTLLFF, then if Geo attacks, my def OoB is LTFTFL and my default def OoB is LLFFTT.

	01-08-2004 15:54									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns Size took precedence to OOB though. At least, that is how I interpreted that rule.

Hmm, when Jamski and Smiley were GMs all ships of one type were removed first (according to OOB), starting with the smallest of course. This allowed a rapid transformation of the fleet. Remember, we were allied in that game and we used to completely transform the character of our fleets by building only one kind of ships.

	01-08-2004 16:02									#40
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People only had one size of ship when Jam/Smiley were the GM.

	01-08-2004 16:04									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns Size took precedence to OOB though. At least, that is how I interpreted that rule.

Exactly.

	01-08-2004 16:13									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns People only had one size of ship when Jam/Smiley were the GM.

I just wanted to remind you we were allies in that game, that's all

	01-08-2004 16:19									#43
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Heh.

	01-08-2004 16:31									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Ljube-ljcvetko Another contribution: If you attack someone, but fail because of raised shields and your home bases are captured, your fleet is lost in space.

Please no! The ships would surely attempt to retake their home bases. The only time when they wouldn't is if there was a combat at the attacked base.

	01-08-2004 16:36									#45
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IMO, there are three possible ways to handle this:

1) An immediate attempt to recapture the home base, as suggested by Chaunk.

2) Similar to what happens when they're hit by a spy: they ran into the shield, so they gave up, went home, and were waiting there when the enemy fleet arrived.

3) Have the fleet itself existing without any bases, free to build more if they can, or try to capture some if they can't.

	01-08-2004 16:42									#46
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The third option, although tempting, is somewhat unrealistic due to the lack of supply for these ships. Option one and two is the same, except perhaps as regards the order of battle used.

I think my suggestion is the best because it differentiates the effect of a spy and a shield on an attacking fleet.

However, if I have to choose between the three, I choose number one - recapture.

	01-08-2004 17:16									#47
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I vote for recapture too.

The difference between #1 and #2 is that with #2, the person attacking the shield-attacker faces the shield-attacker's entire fleet, as though they had enough time to fly out, abort their attack, make it back to base and go back into formation in the same time as the other attack fleet took just starting their attack run.

With #1, the attacker fights against the defence force left behind, then can prepare for the retaliatory assult of the returning shield-attacker force. The fight is done piecemeal, two attacks for the same system in the same turn rather than one all-out battle. It makes more sense to me.

	02-08-2004 00:50									#48
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How about:

3a) The fleet continues to exist, but it loses all BP, spies and shields (even if stockpiled). It then must find a way to capture a base (any base) or it loses 10% (based on "original" fleet size, not recalculated) of its ships each turn.

	02-08-2004 12:29									#49
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Mercenary fleet!!!

	02-08-2004 13:29									#50
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joncha's idea looks pretty good to me... any objections?

	02-08-2004 13:36									#51
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Ooh, attrition. I like that. No objections here.

	02-08-2004 13:41									#52
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to fleet being able to roam around without bases, essentially that's what happens when a player gets 1 captured base but loses at home.

Sign me up.

Another way of picturing our abstracted combat:

Fleets engage in a horizontal line of six squadrons, and fight simultaneously. As a result, a squadron primarily kills what it is directly fighting.

For example, MarkG and DanQ have identical OOBs of TTFFLL. Mark has 10 each of torpedos, fighters, and lasers. DanQ has 30 fighters.

DanQ's 30 fighters deal 20 x2 =40 damage to MarkG's 10 fighters. 20 pts of damage destroy Mark's fighters. The remaining 20 pts are halved to 10, and used against the rest of Mark's fleet in the final calculation.

Mark's 10 torps and 10 lasers deal a total of 10 x 4 = 40 damage. These points are halved to 20 and dealt against Dan's fleet.

	02-08-2004 14:26									#53
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Except that this example can't happen anymore. OoB's in groups of 3, remember?

As for Joncha's proposal, thumbs up!

	02-08-2004 15:55									#54
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Joncha's proposal is good, but so long as the fleet can still be attacked by other Overlords - quite why they'd want to is somewhat beyond me, but otherwise the floating fleet is invincible

Can we clarify rules regarding transfering of bases and craft etc?

	02-08-2004 16:21									#55
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cooperative victories
invincible floating fleets

I want a formal ban on cooperative victories

	02-08-2004 17:05									#56
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Such a fleet disassembles itself in due time, thus it doesn't really matters. But ok, let rogue fleets be attackable.

	03-08-2004 00:53									#57
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I guess we could make fleets attackable, but attacking them would be a ridiculous move.

Maybe we can adjust the attrition rate, but whether it's 10% or 25% the fleet will disappear eventually, and be irrelevant long before that.

	03-08-2004 12:11									#58
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I don't like invincible fleets just sitting around. I suppose attrition will do something to counter that, but still...

	03-08-2004 12:16									#59
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When do we have ignition?

	03-08-2004 13:02									#60
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When we agree on the rules to use. IIRC:

- We've agreed to adjust fleets during battle every three rounds.
- We've agreed to split the OOBs into two groups of thre,e each of which must contain one of each weapon type.
- We've agreed to limit shield and spy stockpiles to three each.
- We've agreed that, when two non-allied people attack someone else, the order they strike in should be randomised.
- We've agreed that ships that attack, hit shields, and come back to find their home bases captured will continue to exist but will suffer rapid attrition.
- The status of co-op victories is yet to be decided.

Did I miss anything?